StillSmart

Re: Difference between rum and vodka?

2016-12-05T01:18:08+00:00

Calling for a group hug here!
Different opinions doesn't mean that I or someone else is wrong.
Enough mush.
Continue.

Robert.

Statistics: Posted by Easydrinker — Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:18 am

Re: Difference between rum and vodka?

2016-12-04T08:06:36+00:00

Curmudgeon wrote:
I hope I said or meant to that vodkas were simpler to make due to being purer in the end regardless of method or ingredients and rums trickier due to being more complex. I probably talked nonsense in attempting to say that.

Whereas I was just alluding to rums being (traditionally) from sugar and sugar refining waste for the initial ferment, then (at least the ones I've seen being produced) reflux distilled. So how much of the flavour is retained from the original ferment would necessitate the use of a bubble plate column - as a standard packed column would likely strip pretty much all flavour.

Rum is one of the few spirits where flavour additions come after distillation. I'd guess that molasses, caramels etc could/would be allowed to referred to as "natural". How much of the cogeners etc make it through to add to the flavours, I won't even try to guess.........

Statistics: Posted by Phantom — Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:06 am

Re: Difference between rum and vodka?

2016-12-04T02:56:28+00:00

I hope I said or meant to that vodkas were simpler to make due to being purer in the end regardless of method or ingredients and rums trickier due to being more complex. I probably talked nonsense in attempting to say that.

Statistics: Posted by Curmudgeon — Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:56 am

Re: Difference between rum and vodka?

2016-12-04T02:32:04+00:00

I think you may be missing an essential point here.
Vodka is purer.
And can be made from many ingredients.
Rums are more complex,and possibly made from fewer.
The idea that one is better than the other is subjective, and will vary with each Rum put against each Vodka.
And assuredly Grandmothers secret Rum recipe will not start with vodka, essences were not available when she was a girl.

Robert.

Statistics: Posted by Easydrinker — Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:32 am

Re: Difference between rum and vodka?

2016-12-04T01:03:04+00:00

I am outnumbered and so almost concede defeat or maybe the debate should continue.

We have suggestion that rum is made from waste and vodka can be made from any junk, but purity is the determining factor..

We have suggestion that a specific rum has a specific flavor (my point, including replication)

We have suggestion of purity making vodka better, but I humbly suggest any old wash triple reflux distilled should be pretty damn neutral and can then be flavoured according to grandmothers secret recipe..

Statistics: Posted by Curmudgeon — Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:03 am

Re: Difference between rum and vodka?

2016-12-03T10:00:55+00:00

Hum ? Having visited a few rum distilleries (a few lifetimes ago, but nonetheless, proper region specific rum distilleries), they don't work by US customs/ATF standards. Generally it's a mix of cane juice and waste from sugar production, which is distilled to azeotrope level. Then flavoured, sweetened and aged (not necessarily in that order).

Each of the islands etc, has a slightly different style and flavour profile.

As RJ points out, with vodka it's about purity and can (often through necessity, and price locally of materials) be produced from most fermentables. Sure one type has slightly different profile from another (think on Chase distillery success with potato vodka, being a prize winning type, while a big brand like Smirnoff being thought of a bland/mediocre), but how close we can get as home/smaller producers is debatable because of the variation in what some would think of as "genuine" being dependent on packaging, advertising, etc......

Statistics: Posted by Phantom — Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:00 am

Re: Difference between rum and vodka?

2016-11-29T02:42:34+00:00

My reference to cost was in UK terms where in equivalent amounts for a gallon of wash white sugar for vodka/neutral is 45 pence for a kilo, while for rums etc brown sugar is £1+ per kilo, golden syrup is £1.70 (900 grammes) and molasses are approx £3 (cant recall exact amount, but rough equivalent to above in our terms). I will leave it to others to say what a per gallon equivalent is for grain as I do not know.

In terms of ease, we certainly appear to differ completely. I consider rum to be a quality drink (as you later define it in your TIME section) and vodka to be pretty much any neutral ethanol. I think skill is required to make a good rum wash and more skill required in terms of varieties and aging and so on. I think any idiot (including me) can make a neutral or close to it and call it vodka and/or flavour it.

Time I certainly defer to you on. As a purely personal distiller I drink everything as soon as a couple of days after stilling. I certainly notice rums and cachaca benefiting from a couple of months but plain sugar wash vodka (you may prefer I call it neutral/white dog/poitin etc) doesn't imo benefit beyond a few days of airing.

Statistics: Posted by Curmudgeon — Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:42 am

Re: Difference between rum and vodka?

2016-11-28T01:50:47+00:00

@ Curmudgeon: I had to read your response a couple of times, in an attempt to discover what I found to be a rather interesting conclusion that was so opposite to what I said.

COST: I was referring to a sugar wash as opposed to grains. As I said, I use the same "sugar wash" for vodka, gin and rum. To cock up an all grain wash or GS if bought here is more expensive.

EASIER: I stand by my claim there. With rum you have much lateral flexibility on what is "rum". With vodka you have very little. Many people claim they have made a vodka, when what they have arrived at is some degree of ethanol, but falls way short of the legal classification of a vodka. I am referring to "vodka", prior to it having any sort of flavoring added. Flavoring can mask all sorts of shite.

TIME: I agree. They just get smoother and smoother. I don't release a rum short of 3 years, preferably 5. But that ties up space for a long time.

Apple Pie is the only rum that I add anything to. My other rums are pure and aged on American White Oak.

I am pleased you are happy with cachaça. I struggled with the idea originally. Sugar cane juice is seasonal and I don't have the facilities to process a seasons worth. I hade to be able to get my hands on the ingredients all year long. That led to looking into the next best thing. GS. Not the first choice, but workable.

Statistics: Posted by RumJohn — Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:50 am

Re: Difference between rum and vodka?

2016-11-28T01:09:59+00:00

RumJohn, it is lovely to have accidentally invoked your return.

You have clarified much of my thinking but not really answered my confusion.

If anything I would say vodka is easier to make as neutral is easier and flavours can be added.

Your cachaca recipe is my favourite for ready to drink from a simple still.

True rums take a while.

edit : at time of writing rum is much more expensive to make as has historically been true while vodka is made from cheap local ingredients. Towards end of RumJohn's description, I started to disagree, but was shocked at doing so. I find vodka from sugar wash hard to do badly and rum requires blending (assuming a pot still. Any idiot can make neutral with a not pot still)

clarification : RumJohn is I think being very generous to most home distillers and giving them leeway between true vodka and neutral. Most make neutral/white hooch/poteen/poitin, which doesn't help my original question at all

Statistics: Posted by Curmudgeon — Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:09 am

Re: Difference between rum and vodka?

2016-11-28T00:57:47+00:00

@ Curmudgeon: I could not pass up this one.

Lets back up a few years. Most alcohols have a geographic aspect to their makeup. In reference to the two alcohols you have selected, sugar cane was not available in the colder northern European climates, and the grains, potatoes or whatever was available that went into the production of vodka were not readily available in the tropical or subtropical areas. In other words, people made alcohol (ethanol)out of whatever they could ferment.

The legal definition of vodka is an odorless, tasteless product distilled to an extremely high ABV. I don't remember the exact %'age, but around 90-95%. A neutral product.

Rum must be made from a sugar cane based product, and is only distilled to a level where the characteristics of the rum continue to come across the still. The laws governing the classification of rum are much more broad than those for vodka. You have a lot more leeway with rum.

You can make vodka out of any fermentable material. Rum must be made out of a sugar cane based product, not sugar beet, or other fermentable material. I don't make vodka or gin anymore, but when I did, I would start out with the same beer (wash) for rum, vodka, and gin. It was the distillation process that gave the differentiation. I would use a different wash for cachaça (cane spirit), whiskey, etc.

When I am asked by those starting out, what they should make first, I always suggest rum. Failures are not too costly. Arriving at something similar can be acceptable. You have a lot of latitude with rum. It is a good product to learn your equipment on.

Whereas with vodka, you have very little latitude. The criteria for a vodka is much more specific. I am of the opinion that if you have to carbon filter your high wine, then you made a poor wash, distilled it badly, or both. I don't filter anything. Especially a rum.

I could go on for hours, but will not. Hope this provides a little clarification for you.

Statistics: Posted by RumJohn — Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:57 am

Re: Difference between rum and vodka?

2016-11-28T00:56:48+00:00

Well,you have me there.
You could blindfold me, and I would bet money on telling one from t'other.
How to explain it?
That has me beat.
I've never been one for the "walloping great whiffs of boil in the bag Cod in Cheese sauce, with a hint of Granny's sideboard" style of flavour descriptions.
But Rum tastes like Rum and Vodka tastes like...Vodka?

And a home distillers efforts at either may taste like neither.
Yet may still taste good?

I'm gonna cite the word paradox here, and close.

Robert.

Statistics: Posted by Easydrinker — Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:56 am

Difference between rum and vodka?

2016-11-27T20:11:09+00:00

I know the practical differences as in ingredients, but am hoping someone with better tastebuds can explain the practical real world differences in taste etc.

I know logically that both are initially fermented to effectively zero sugar. To me, rum is still smoother and somehow sweeter. Is this as simple as having more complex sugars, some of which are unfermentable, compared to vodka which has more starches that need forced to be fermentable? (apologies if my science and/or terminology is wrong)

Statistics: Posted by Curmudgeon — Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:11 pm