StillSmart

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-16T23:47:14+00:00

Boozoid wrote:
With regards to the heads and tails what should I keep? Do you recycle forever or do you throw some away?

Cheers,

This thread has sort of grown,but I hope Boozoid still thinks that we are answering his question.

Myself,handling the sort of run AM mentioned,would probably have similar percentages of the cuts.
I never seem to have enough BBQ,fire or bonfire lighting fluid,so look forward to the heads of heads to replenish stocks.
One of these days I'm going to try it in the mower-(having drained out the petrol).

Where I differ,is in my grain Whisky attempts,where I keep a feints container used and refilled from distillation to distillation,to add to stripped wash,trying for flavour carry through more than anything.This goes on and on,in an effort to emulate Scotch single malt distilling.

Recently I have started my own cut and paste library of pertinent and clever stuff that I find,to save time trawling back through pages of forum stuff.

Here is a gem of succinctness,posted by Myles,on another forum,I don't think he will object to my importing it here.

"Traditional pot stills will run a low wines charge of 28% for product at 70% - mostly to ensure consistent cut volumes at a consistent power input between runs. They also use the 28% charge to hydro-separate the boiler charge to aid cuts."

Robert.

Statistics: Posted by Easydrinker — Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:47 pm

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-16T14:48:01+00:00

My take on the dilution for re-runs is that a weaker ABV will give less output for a given wattage. Therefore it takes longer to get that specific alcohol out. As there is less of it, less heat is given up to the column when the distillate condenses in the column, making the reflux rate higher and the output purer.

Pot stills have some amount of reflux factor so the same applies but maybe not as much.

As with most aspects of this hobby, the slower you do it, the better the results. Except sampling of course.

Statistics: Posted by John51 — Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:48 pm

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-16T11:11:47+00:00

Anavrin wrote:
Hi aidanmac

I didn't question the 5 litres heads from a huge heads run as I thought it sounded about right but is it really worth keeping for next time after already being recycled once already?......

I'm with you on that. The first 5Lt went down the sink, never to be seen again The bit I kept was the 4X200ml lots from the 6th litre just before the Heart Cut. They weren't good enough to make the cut into drinking spirits but they were relatively clean and worth keeping to add to a future stripping run

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:11 am

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-16T11:02:14+00:00

chill wrote:
This "dilution for better separation" thing has never made sense to me. .....

Chuck

Truth be told I picked that up many years ago when researching this wonderful craft.

In the early days I read everything, visited every site and forum and absorbed as much advice and wisdom as I could along the way. In doing so I encountered many distillers with long experience. Some were following handed down practices and others were more technical and scientific in their approach to the craft. One of the many things I picked up along the was was advice that at lower concentrations, the volatiles, including the desireable ethanol, is easier to separate from the main body of liquid and I accepted that advice at face value because of the many sources it came from.

From a proof or qualification point of view I can only refer to my early days using an Airstill (which I use to this day for experiments). When I discovered the need to Double Distil with the Airstill I just put the Low Wines into the still and ran them. The results were not very good, even after carbon filtering.

I put questions to many of the experienced distillers I had encountered in my research as to why this was happening and the consensus was that I was getting smearing across the entire distillate and the solution was to dilute the low wines and reduce the power.

At that time I didn't have the technical know-how to reduce the power but diluting the low wines to 30% ABV did the trick.

Bottom line, I don't have a scientific explanation to offer just the benefit of my experience

AM

I accepted this as fact based on experience

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:02 am

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-16T11:03:04+00:00

Hi aidanmac

I didn't question the 5 litres heads from a huge heads run as I thought it sounded about right but is it really worth keeping for next time after already being recycled once already?

I thought it was good practice to throw the heads collected from a heads run, saying that, I don't do heads runs.

On a big spirit run I throw the first litre after the fores are collected, then anything that doesn't make the cut goes into a feints jar to be added to the next big spirit run.

Saying that, I'm running a reflux column not a pot so I guess you will always have some ethanol content in there.

Statistics: Posted by Anavrin — Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:01 am

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-16T10:36:17+00:00

Capt-Cudellez wrote:
aidanmac wrote:The first thing to remember about a Heads Only run is that there's going to be quite a lot of Heads produced and smearing is unavoidable. I simply dump the first 5lt - no questions - no smelling - no tasting

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Should that not be 0.5L?

I knew someone would go Whaaaaaat???? when I posted that but it's true!

On a normal 40lt @ 30%ABV spirit run I chuck the first 500ml down the sink as Fores. The next 2.5lt is routinely run to my Heads storage Cornie Keg. After that I start my Spirit Run in earnest by smelling and tasting distillate on the fly to determine the Heads/Hearts cut

Note: The Heads I'm referring to here are from a Pot still and not from a Reflux column.

On a pure Heads Run there's no Fores but I expect a LOT of Heads to be present and smeared across the early part of the run. Hence, I discard the first 5Lt (five Litres) and only test the output after that point.

On the Heads Run just completed, the next litre, collected in 5X200ml lots, proved to be mostly contaminated with detectable Heads characteristics (something I describe as a sweet Pear taste) The fourth lot of the 200ml lots was mostly clear when tested on the fly and the last 200ml lot was included in the Hearts collection. (The 4X200ml lots rejected in this case are gone back into the heads storage and will be run again sometime next year)

In total, 5.8Lt of the output from that Heads Run was discarded as unusable and the remainder made beautiful Vodka some of which will be used to make some delectable liqueurs for Christmas presents, etc, and the rest is for SWMBO

Mad, isn't it!! But, many here have been at this a long time now and while I know I could squeeze another couple of litres out of my Heads by treating them for a few weeks with Sodium Bicarb and all that palaver I prefer the simple life these days. As in , 'take the good, chuck the bad and move on to the next' or Bish Bash Bosh! as I think they say these days.

Truth be told I'm probably just getting lazy in my old age

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:36 am

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-15T17:16:37+00:00

This "dilution for better separation" thing has never made sense to me. Dilution for fire safety, that I understand. The boiling point of the still charge is based on the boiling point relative volumes of what is in the still charge. So adding water will increase the boiling point so I would expect it to be harder to separate out the elements with a lower boiling point (e.g heads). Not diluting it would result in a lower boiling point (it is mostly ethanol with ethyl acetate and some other bits). That should allow the ethyl acetate to largely boil off before much ethanol starts to come across. Am I misunderstanding something here? My last few heads runs have been of undiluted heads and I am (if my memory and calculations are correct) getting a lot more usable ethanol than when I diluted then back to 30-40% with baking soda and boiling water.

You do need to be cautious as with no water and no tails, you can run the still dry if you try to collect too much!

Chuck

Statistics: Posted by chill — Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:16 pm

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-15T15:22:13+00:00

aidanmac wrote:
The first thing to remember about a Heads Only run is that there's going to be quite a lot of Heads produced and smearing is unavoidable. I simply dump the first 5lt - no questions - no smelling - no tasting

-----------------------------

Should that not be 0.5L?

Statistics: Posted by Capt-Cudellez — Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:22 pm

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-15T11:29:49+00:00

Basic 24/25L wash with Vodka Star and 6Kg of white sugar.

I used to put the heads back in when using an airstill. At some point with recycling, the game stops being worth the candle. That varies person to person. Some get a kick out of being super efficient. I enjoy doing as little as possible for ok results. A matter of perception I suppose.

Statistics: Posted by John51 — Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:29 am

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-14T19:31:45+00:00

I just completed a Heads only run, after dilution I had 45lt @ 25%ABV (very low ABV for better separation in this case)

My Heads runs are made up of collected Heads from multiple Spirit runs from my Pot Still, with the Fores having been dumped on the original runs - that's just my way of doing it

The first thing to remember about a Heads Only run is that there's going to be quite a lot of Heads produced and smearing is unavoidable. I simply dump the first 5lt - no questions - no smelling - no tasting

The next litre or so is collected in 200ml batches and each is tested on the fly. When I reach the one with hardly detectable traces of the Heads I switch to 750ml collections until it gets down to 50%ABV

Remember, there are NO Tails in a Heads Only run. As the ABV drops the output gets too slow to bother with as the boiler churns out more and more water with the ever decreasing volume of Ethanol.

At the end of the run I had collected 8lt of clean spirit with a batch ABV of 69%. I'd call that a result and a 'Heads-up' about doing Heads Runs

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:31 pm

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-14T16:17:37+00:00

Thanks gents,

I figured I'll be following Capt'n C advise as it makes the most sense to me...and I don't like throwing the Alc away. We'll see how I get on.

However I was planning to put the heads in with the next batch ..certainly not collecting heads from muliple runs for a heads run. Is this OK?

John51
"I turn the T500 off once I've got my 3L of hearts. The 500ml of fores/heads goes into a spray bottle"

What size L wash are you running to get 3L hearts

Statistics: Posted by Boozoid — Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:17 pm

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-14T10:19:12+00:00

YHB wrote:
Capt'n C - keeps the heads and throws the tails.

Aidanmac - keeps the heads and the tails

Me - I throw them both.

The one consistent thing about this forum is that you never get consistent answers.

Hope that helps

I turn the T500 off once I've got my 3L of hearts. The 500ml of fores/heads goes into a spray bottle and gets used as cleaner/deodorant. (Excellent deodorant btw, try it.)

Heads need to be stored until there is enough to do a heads run and I already have enough clutter.

Tails are stinky. I don't want them running through my column once let alone again with a tails only run.

Statistics: Posted by John51 — Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:19 am

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-14T09:37:00+00:00

If it was fusil oils in my hearts ... I would have thought that my 2L of Tails would have turned Milky after dilution.

The tails did not turn milky following dilution with tap water or asda water.

In fact the only bit of my product which I have managed to turn milky is the first 3L from the Essencia Filter (and I've been trying hard to replicate the milkyness).

Its making me think I've just flushed out a brand new purchased filter with my hearts and picked something up.

Statistics: Posted by Boozoid — Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:37 am

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-14T00:50:24+00:00

@Boozoid: Everyone would rather blame "the water" for a milky/cloudy looking final product where in most cases it is purely a matter of trying to get too much out of the run and not shutting it down early enough. That being the case, the levels of fusil oils are too great resulting in the cloudiness when taking the product down toward 40%.

Make your final cut earlier - and then dump the remainder.

Statistics: Posted by RumJohn — Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:50 am

Re: First proper run .. Questions

2014-11-13T21:03:07+00:00

I can't address the milky spirit problem not had that issue, and it sounds familiar but I can't locate a thread on it.
-----------------------------------

Boozoid wrote:
The bit I don't fully understand is.... what percentage of Heads is actually stinky nasty stuff?

If I pour my 1.3L heads back in for recycling in a later batch..(lets says I would have 1.3L heads from that identical batch anyway) I'm guessing I'm not going to remove 2.6L Heads in total from the new batch? So how much heads would I end up with from the new batch containing my recycled heads?

-----------------------------------

I don't find heads that nasty, they are a bit sickly sweet smelling and have solvent overtones - not something I'd want to drink, but not repulsive. To answer your question - you'll collect about the same amount of heads each time by adding the heads in with the next strip.
The actual amount of heads is really really tiny - it just contaminates a large amount of good alcohol - it is just very difficult to split it out as the boiling points are pretty close to that of ethanol. A small amount of the heads (mostly undetectable to us) will smear across the good product too, so after 3 or 4 cycles the amount of heads is pretty constant, as you are adding new heads, but also removing some along with the good product.
IMHO throwing away heads is just throwing away good alcohol that's fell in with a bad crowd, give them a chance to be rehabilitated

For something like rum, there are lots of good flavours in the late heads, I actually include some of these in my white rum that takes about a month of airing out before it stops smelling like you messed the cuts up - after that the flavour is really good, but there is a little bit more of a headache in each bottle - so you have to walk a bit of a tightrope to get it right.
If doing neutral don't try this, make clean cuts.

Statistics: Posted by Capt-Cudellez — Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:03 pm