StillSmart

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-02-03T13:02:57+00:00

Cheers for that Frank

I'm planning on about 6 months for the 10 L the way it's going

It's such a pain to have to take a taste every couple of weeks not!

Will probably acquire another barrel soon as have got more peated malt coming shortly

Statistics: Posted by Admiral Toad — Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:02 pm

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-02-03T10:21:48+00:00

AT you must have a big fagpacket or a bloo#y small pencil!
Anyway, great post. cheers for the calcs and I am now keen on finding out more too.

There might be something in this....I was told (via the coopers) that I'd expect to wait 12 months for the whisky to be suitably mature/oaked and, from distant memory, that was referencing a full 25l with 65%ABV contents (if any of this is relevant ).

Statistics: Posted by Frank — Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:21 am

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-02-02T09:14:59+00:00

Thanks for the info frank

Been doing a few back of the fag packet/I pad calcs and it kinda blows my theory about surface area to volume to time to mature theory
You may remember I came across the small cask and under 3 month maturing from the guy at the loch ewe mini distillery
He reckoned under 3 months in a 5 litre barrel
Doing the maths in a 5 L there is approx .0314 sq m per l whereas a 10 L is about .02 sq M so you would think that would need half as long again
However as capacity increases the rate of ratio change drops dramatically so that franks area per litre has only dropped to .019
If you go the full hog ( sorry no pun intended)a hogshead which are I believe 1200 x 762mm the area has dropped to .007 sq m per L but that means the smallest barrel is only about 4.5 times greater contact ratio
That would mean whiskey in a hogshead would be ready in about 15 months ! As we all know it's a minimum 3 years and usually at least 10 for a decent malt

So it's more than volume and area maybe it's the distance of the spirit to the wood as well maybe slow convection movement means the liquid passes the wood more frequently in a small barrel

Whatever all I know is that my first attempt was pretty good and a nice colour after 3 months in the 5L ones

Statistics: Posted by Admiral Toad — Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:14 am

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-01-31T23:49:40+00:00

Hi again AT
yep outside dimensions they are.
Internally it would be approx 36cm long with an ends diameter of 26cm and a middle diameter of 31cm...or something like that anyway....
cheers

Statistics: Posted by Frank — Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:49 pm

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-01-31T13:35:14+00:00

Hi Frank
I'm guessing that's roughly the overall dimensions

Could you take a guess at the internal dims please

BTW thanks for the encouragement

Statistics: Posted by Admiral Toad — Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-01-31T07:27:23+00:00

@AT sorry mate, seriously crazy weather here took out our internet transmitter (and dumped over 1000mm of rain in 2 days!) anyway....

Thank you; as you so generously offered....for your math, the barrel is 43cm long and 30cm diameter on the ends, approx 35 at the centre.

For ref: a lot of the copperage's wares are 'on show' here http://www.rolloutthebarrel.com.au/products.html#mature....and the 25l is there, somewhere.

When I get my proverbial (and the farm) together, I'll send you an actual photo of my barrel; if you like.

Statistics: Posted by Frank — Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:27 am

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-01-27T09:30:10+00:00

Bet that's a bonny barrel Frank
I noticed that at the Balvenie cooperage they burn/toast the barrels on a special machine quite spectacular when being used but you need one end open so impractical for us guys
Do me a favour give me the length and average diameter of your barrel and I'll play around with the maths

Statistics: Posted by Admiral Toad — Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:30 am

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-01-27T07:33:08+00:00

I was gifted a new 25 litre American oak barrel made 'locally' by a family of coopers (3rd generation now, I think). It was not 'fired'/treated in any way internally. After a few water rinses, I soaked it with dry sherry (subtle barrel rotations for many weeks) and then started to use it for whisky storage.

I found the first and possibly second cycle of spirit through the barrel was obviously improving the spirit (esp with regards to flavour layering) but also adding significant 'wood notes' and a certain astringency. Mind you I was basing my Scotch on a wheatgerm recipe (DWWG) then...so what would I know

Anyway, now that I've moved onto far nicer Scotch recipies.....
the last time-and-a-half I have put spirit in the barrel and given it some months, the conditioning has been outstanding and apparently rapid.....smooth, consistent and moreish within 2 months! I have no doubt this 'fill cycle' could sit in the barrel for a year or more and be all the better for it too (I just wonder if it will though)....

So, for sure there's an ideal duration to mature selected ABV% spirit on oak
AND, with a barrel at least, perhaps there's an ideal number of soaks BEFORE it works optimally too (?)

Statistics: Posted by Frank — Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:33 am

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-01-23T19:18:55+00:00

There's no doubt that 5 and 10 litre barrels give you accelerated ageing compared to hogsheads etc rough maths confirms that so 3 to 6month ageing seems to work in these
And yes some bourbon chunks seems to be working really well too
On our new year vist to the Balvenie distillery (highly recommended dear but worth it book first only) they have their own cooperage where they disassemble the bourbon/ sherry etc barrels before reassembling
They look for the spirit line or sort of watermark in the staves. If too near the outer edge then they discard them not enough un touched wood to flavour the spirit. But remember the bourbon has been in there a few years already
So I guess there should be a good few uses in a new small barrel especially if you let soak in some sherry or port before each refill as the guy at Loch Ewe distillery told me
As an aside sherry casks for distilleries are getting hard to obtain so Balvenie are starting to fill new barrels with sherry as backup
There is even talk that the one use law of Bourbon barrels in America, a measure brought in to keep coopers in work in the 30s, may be about to be repealed after pressure from the Distilling industry over there
Now that will really rock the distillers over here

Statistics: Posted by Admiral Toad — Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:18 pm

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-01-21T19:19:28+00:00

I am totally with you missus on Bacardi Aidan.

Rum is the something I have not done yet to a level of satisfaction. I was bought two litres of Bacardi as xmas prezzies by a couple of people who I keep pissed throughout the course of the year that know this.

I could not believe the lack of smell and taste, especially smell.

I think they have tinkered with their margins, as it really is not that different to vodka.

Shame.

Hey ho, time to find a good molasses supplier.

Statistics: Posted by mozr — Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:19 pm

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-01-21T18:52:02+00:00

I tend to favour the science of trial and error I'll be introducing my toasted American White Oak in lengths of 450mm X 30mm X 5mm and see how they get on Real Bourbon Whisky is a medium to long term goal for me as there's no workaround or substitution for time.

I hope by mid 2014 to be making good progress towards a reasonable standard Bourbon and develop it from there.

In the meantime I'll be continuing using the JD chips but I will be using more and more grain to provide the fermentables in my washes and I'm going to do my first Rum in the next week.

SWMBO, my drinking buddy, has become completely disillusioned with Bacardi which, she says, is now almost indistinguishable from Vodka and I've no excuse now that my new workshop, & Brewery/Distillery is almost completed.

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-01-21T17:48:15+00:00

I wonder if the opposite would work better: putting it under a small vacuum. This is an interesting article on the subject.
http://eater.com/archives/2011/08/22/se ... arnold.php

Chuck

Statistics: Posted by chill — Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:48 pm

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-01-21T10:36:27+00:00

There must be a scientific ratio for alcohol surface area to surface area of toasted caramelised wood x amount of times alcohol is sucked into and spat out of the oak.

If you were to create a thin cylindrical toasted oak barrel and inserted 100ml of alcohol, filling the vessel, then I am sure it would 'age' more quickly as the ratio of oak surface area to alcohol would have increased.

As far as I am concerned small batch soaking on JD oak chips is VERY close if not better than the real thing. I have fooled many a drinker, including some knob who thinks he knows more than God.

If I could be arsed and clever enough I might try and mathematically work out the ratio in a standard barrel, and then apply that to the chips.

Statistics: Posted by mozr — Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:36 am

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-01-21T03:15:26+00:00

C'mon Aidan, give us a clue...dont beat around the bush here...what do you really think?

I was interested in the amount of oaksticks and the duration you are going to try here as it seems to me that there MAY be something to this pressurised idea versus, say, aging the spirit in a typical glass demijohn.....but, as usual, I've NFI (and wonder too).

Anyway mate, good luck and good drinking

Statistics: Posted by Frank — Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:15 am

Re: New Oaking Containers

2013-01-20T17:01:12+00:00

You're not wrong Frank, however, I don't have access to, or room for, ageing barrels so I have to find a workaround. I'm not under any illusions here, I know that any alternative I come up with will be a compromise but I'm prepared to live with that.

The Cornie Kegs have a pressure release valve with a ring pull and I intend pulling the ring once every 24 hours during the storage period to equalise positive or negative pressure. Probably wasting my time but what the hell, I love messing around with my product - and drinking it too.

Hell!, I find JD BBQ chunks soaked in neutral alcohol for a couple of weeks makes good Whisky, so what do I know?

On some forums such sentiment would be considered sacrilege punishable by public flogging but I don't give a flying f*#k. I distill because I love it and I love making spirits that I enjoy more than commercially made shit and if I make a few cock-up's along the way I can live with that too

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:01 pm