StillSmart

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-11-22T08:31:18+00:00

Thanks for reviving this thread, I'd forgotten all about it.

You're right, there's no substitute for time and I think that's why I haven't posted anything on this subject for a while.

What I consider my first real Bourbon is waiting to be bottled and will slip into pride of place in my drinks collection for the Christmas table, although I suspect I may well enjoy a glass or two on Christmas Eve.

The degree of toasting of the oak directly affects the colour and sweetness of the Whisky and I've found that, for me, toasting thin Oak biscuits too darkly will produce too much caramelised wood sugars leading to the sweetness in the spirit that I've experienced.

I believe I now have that sorted and I'm quite happy with the oaking procedure that I follow. I just need to be watchful about toasting my Oak just to the degree I want. I also char only very lightly with a MAPP torch and douse the char in boiling water at just the right point. After that, my Whiskies will age for a minimum of 9 months and I'm planning to put down my first batch for ageing to 5years in February next after I've changed over completely to all grain ferments.

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:31 am

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-11-22T05:23:57+00:00

Oaking has been on my mind a lot. I use wine barrel staves, about 1" of stave per liter. This results in a fairly dark spirit. I have toasted these on my BBQ, with much the same result as you showed earlier Aidenmac, just darker. Some was toasty, some was burnt to a crisp. Now I just char a fresh stave with my MAPP torch. This is more repeatable, and quicker. I also sometimes use StillDragon(AUS) oak dominoes charred, one domino per three liters whiskey.

In my experience, you cannot measure the effect of oak in only weeks. For the first two months on oak my spirit goes through a phase I call "angry oak". If I drink it during this time it tastes prickly, with odd flavors, makes me feel a little sick sometimes. After 2-3 months it has settled down and starts mellowing out.

A shortcut through the angry oak phase is distress aging. I boil it on a hotplate in a 5L SS pot with glass lid. I bring it just to a boil, then set it on a shelf to cool, then bring it to a boil again. I get two cycles per day on weekends, or one cycle on workdays. After a fortnight, the spirit is well oaked and colored, and no longer angry.

Even if you shortcut the oak process, I find that it still needs time for the rum or whiskey character to really come alive. I have a UJ that I distress aged that was still rough as guts after the DA process. After another six weeks of settling time, it has turned into a nice sipping whiskey. I imagine it would be even better given six months to a year, but I dont see it lasting that long.

Statistics: Posted by Stillonfire — Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:23 am

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-06-23T09:12:03+00:00

I'm wary of adding more Oak in an attempt to improve the colour, at this time, because the spirit has already extracted a high level of sweetness from the small amount of wood in the jar. Adding more Oak may just make it sweeter again

I seem to remember reading somewhere that in the natural process of expansion and contraction of the spirit in and out of the Oak in the barrels this also allows for some oxidation of the spirits which contributes greatly to the colour of the final product.

Perhaps the cause of this problem is the fact I am using a glass storage vessel that does not allow air to interact with the spirit in the same way it would in an Oak barrel.

Over the next week I will open one of the jars twice daily and whisk the contents to add some air to the spirit and see if that induces a notable colour change compared to the other jars.

I'll post the outcome whatever it is

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:12 am

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-06-20T17:06:40+00:00

In my experience, more oak gives more colour. Reusing oak results in less colour extraction each time. Heavier toast or char gives a darker colour. I don't recall getting a very sweet taste early in aging. Could it be this batch of oak or the level to which you have toasted it? I find that longer aging brings out more tannins and woody tastes, maybe it needs more time?

I do recall one batch of rum that was very caramel in taste after aging on some wood. I took it out and put in charred wood and that greatly improved it.

Chuck

Statistics: Posted by chill — Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:06 pm

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-06-20T07:32:07+00:00

OK, I'm big enough to admit when I have a problem and ask for help

3l jars, 3l of neutral with three small toasted Oak biscuits. After 10 days the spirit has a relatively light colour but the spirit is quite sweet, too sweet! even for Bourbon!

If I reduce the amount of wood, starting off, the sweetness will be less but so will the colour which is far too light.

The question is, which is the greatest contributor to spirit colour/appearance, time, oxidation or Oak?

My Oak biscuits are 5mm X 25mm X 75mm

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:32 am

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-06-15T17:05:41+00:00

As promised

This jar has had 900ml of spirit at 60%ABV and a single toasted Oak biscuit in for 10 days.

After 8 days I added a few pieces of almost Burgundy coloured Red Onion skin and the colour deepened substantially without affecting the flavour or mouthfeel in any way.

After 48 hours I removed the Onion Skins and they all looked like this..

Honestly, the things we get up to

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:05 pm

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-06-15T09:52:12+00:00

The information within this thread is exactly what I need. I think the sticks I used was far too big and so the smokey flavour overwhelmed my likker, that's why I took them out.

Maybe i should have left the sticks in the jars and waited to see if the smokeyness mellowed.

Good thread, thanks Guys

Statistics: Posted by Gaztops — Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:52 am

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-06-15T08:38:43+00:00

Just a little thing I recently discovered in my quest to make real/better bourbon. I had read, somewhere, about adding the dried outer skin from onions to enhance the colour of golden spirits and this got me thinking about the ruby glow of bourbon and how to achieve this in the short term/short aged spirits I'm currently enjoying and I got a flash of inspiration - Red Onions

I put some dry Red Onion skins in my jars and the result is absolutely amazing. Beautiful deep ruby colour but absolutely no effect on flavour or smell and when I remove the previously dark red skins they are translucent and pale with just a hint of pinkish tone.

I'll post a couple of pics later this evening.

The things we do to Whisky

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:38 am

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-06-08T01:18:02+00:00

Hic! ooooo I'm with you on that Chuck.

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:18 am

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-06-08T00:34:22+00:00

I agree, Bookers is lovely. I am still experimenting and learning with Bourbon. It is going to be a long journey, but an enjoyable one.

Statistics: Posted by chill — Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:34 am

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-06-07T19:45:31+00:00

Thanks for the pointers Chuck I'll add them to my deliberations. I think it's going to take me some time to get this close to right but, hey! if it was easy.............right?

My all time favourite hi proof Bourbon is Bookers when I can get it

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:45 pm

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-06-07T16:42:12+00:00

Good to see you around again Cap'n.

AM I have been getting good results using a combination of raw, medium, and heavy toast sticks and charred sticks. My sticks are about 15cm x 1cm x 1cm (I cut them on my band saw). Charring such a narrow stick leaves little wood in the middle and one of the reasons I add the toasted oak to more closely mimic (at least in my mind) the wood in a barrel.

I start my aging at 65% then reduce to about 58% then 53% then 48%, waiting about 3 weeks in between each. Sometimes I reduce it further to drink, but I also enjoy a high-proof bourbon.

Chuck

Statistics: Posted by chill — Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-06-07T12:09:20+00:00

First, welcome back, your absence was noted.

These are good points Cap'n. I had avoided heavy char after an early experiment turned out really smokey and I didn't realise that the smokey taste would mellow and virtually disappear over time.

I'll char one of my biscuits and add it to one of my 3l ageing jars, some of which have only been filled in the last couple of days.

I've decided to step down the strength in two stages, to 55%, then 45%, then bottle strength. Time interval between these steps is still a matter of speculation and guesswork Guess I'll just have to keep tasting & sampling

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:09 pm

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-06-07T08:35:18+00:00

Hi Folks! I've been absent from the forum for a while - real life stuff and a buggered laptop have been the main reasons.

Aidan, as you know, I've not done any "real bourbon" successfully. But my best tasting results have not been with toasted wood, but with a heavy char.

Might be worth trying an ageing experiment taking a small piece of one of those sticks, or a Bourbon barrel chunk (1" square or so) and attacking it with a blow or mapp torch.

It colours up very quickly, but if left for a few months tastes great. I'm sure a portion of the bourbon taste you are looking for is just burnt american oak.

When I do a rum or whisky, I water down the abv on the first of the month until its just above bottling strength. I do think it tastes better that the ones I leave at barrel strength then water down for bottling. Whether its the alcohol taking different notes from the wood at different ABVs, or its just as simple as the added water is getting flavoured from the wood interaction, I don't know.
Either way, I'm sure it makes a better drink.

Statistics: Posted by Capt-Cudellez — Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:35 am

Re: The Quest for Real Bourbon

2013-06-07T07:02:01+00:00

Then on Homedistiller.org home site I found this...
http://homedistiller.org/aging/aging/wood
which gives conflicting figures

I have put my American White Oak biscuits into White neutral @ 62.5% and the product, after just 21days, no nuking, has Vanillan and sweetness but the colour is relatively light, for Bourbon type Whisky, at that stage.

However, the fact that the spirit is able to extract these characteristics at 62.5% poses more questions than it answers. e.g. The general consensus seems to be that higher %ABV will extract the more complex characteristics like Tannins while Vanillan and caramelised Oak sugars are supposed to be extracted by alcohol at lower strengths

Anyone got any seriously qualified data in this area, I'm getting screen blindness with all the reading and research I've been doing to try to find the Holy Grail on this subject

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:02 am