StillSmart

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-31T02:54:38+00:00

Two thoughts on rum:
- it is one of the easier things to get a decent result from
- it REALLY improves with age, much more dramatically than say whiskey

Chuck

Statistics: Posted by chill — Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:54 am

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-31T02:33:26+00:00

The wife likes rum drinks. I've been checking out a number of rum-related posts - many of them yours. I'm going to get there sooner than not. Thanks for the help.

Statistics: Posted by Cherry Yidaki — Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:33 am

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-31T01:39:31+00:00

Have never used a Turbo yeast. Can't get it here anyway. I use a bakers yeast, it works fine and I get a good clean wash usually around 11%. I use .25Kg of sugar per liter, no nutrients, or any other additives for the rum wash.

Statistics: Posted by RumJohn — Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:39 am

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-30T22:43:44+00:00

So, the advantages of baker's or brewer's yeast, lower ABV washes, are:

- more affordable (questionable, if you are pitching 3 or 4 times more)
- fewer off flavors
- easier/more-obvious cuts
- shorter fermentations/quicker fermentation finishing
- the satisfaction of using easily-obtained/household ingredients to make something, if not extraordinary, at least beyond what's ordinary for most people.

Are those accurate? Are there other positive attributes?

And, other than the lower ABV's-per-batch, are there any cons?

Statistics: Posted by Cherry Yidaki — Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:43 pm

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-30T20:52:25+00:00

Exactly. Bread yeast can handily eat that much sugar. If you upped it to 7 or 8 Kg you would likely need the champagne yeast and the ferment would take longer and you are more likely to get unwanted off tastes. In my experience, you are far better off making more, lower ABV washes, than chasing fewer, higher ABV washes.

Chuck

Statistics: Posted by chill — Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:52 pm

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-30T20:24:43+00:00

No need.

Bread yeast will consume 5Kg of sugar in 25L of water. There will be nothing left for the Champagne yeast.

Statistics: Posted by YHB — Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:24 pm

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-30T20:17:26+00:00

Sweet! chill, once my other yeasts have run out I intend to turn to baker's yeast at least to try it out.

I saw something about yeast mixing when reading around. I wonder if it would work to do a bread yeast initial fermentation, then add champagne or cuvee after a couple days/weeks to get a greater ABV out of the wash?. And if there would be an advantage to doing it...?

I bet someone here has tried it. How'd it work?

Statistics: Posted by Cherry Yidaki — Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:17 pm

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-30T17:49:22+00:00

Another option is bread yeast. I switched to it from Champagne yeast and have been happy with the result. It is quite cheap and you can bang in a lot of it instead of making a yeast starter. You can't push the ABV as far as with Champagne yeast, but it finishes quicker. I use about 5Kg of sugar in 25L of water.

Chuck

Statistics: Posted by chill — Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:49 pm

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-30T16:44:43+00:00

RumJohn
"Attn: Cherry: Your initial SG could go a little higher. Your sugar to water ratio has room to change."

I know you're right. Unfortunately these are my first two washes ever. Since reading around these boards I've switched to a '2 pounds sugar to each 1 gallon water' standard.

"You keep stirring the wash. Depending on how vigorous your stirring is you might be adding oxygen to the wash which you don't want at this stage. Leave it alone."

Will do. Thanks for the info/guidance.
--------------------------------------------------------------

John51 "... imo diy is false economy if you are buying in product while getting the diy down."

You make a cogent argument. Yet, I still hear my granny in my hindbrain saying, "Take care of the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves." Plus, it seems somehow counter-intuitive, socialist, smoke-and-mirrors, asymmetrical... or something.

I'm not a huge drinker and - at least at this point - am not thinking about turning out copious gallons of salable-grade product. I'm more looking to do micro-scale artisan crafting of good, social tipple for friends and family. Bulk buying of a turbo yeast doesn't fit with that current goal.

I'm verymuch looking forward to taking and learning from this board, and others, the good techniques, recipes, solid practices, etc. that over time will help me evolve a version of this hobby most satisfying to my needs and sensibilities.

I've only had an air still for a month, now, and have yet to run a real wash. I appreciate all comments and advice. Every bit of it goes toward shaping how I do and think about my distilling; thanks in advance, everybody, for all the success I see headed this way.

Statistics: Posted by Cherry Yidaki — Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:44 pm

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-30T09:21:00+00:00

Cherry Yidaki wrote:
John 51 - I am sure your logic is unassailable, but I have a hard time convincing myself to spend money on something I already have or can readily make. I still have a dozen packets of Champagne and Cuvee yeast... But, if it's going to take weeks and weeks to get them to ferment and clear, I suppose that just makes your point stronger.... heh

I'll have to noodle on it.

In bulk VS is ~£2.75 each delivered. At 7 litres (or more) of 40%abv from each wash, that's ~39 pence per litre. Plus you've still got your original stock to diy once you have loads and loads of product in stock.

imo diy is false economy if you are buying in product while getting the diy down.

Statistics: Posted by John51 — Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:21 am

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-30T02:40:09+00:00

Attn: Cherry: Your initial SG could go a little higher. Your sugar to water ratio has room to change.

You keep stirring the wash. Depending on how vigorous your stirring is you might be adding oxygen to the wash which you dont want at this stage. Leave it alone.

Yeast does have a shelf life and it is cheap. Use good fresh yeast.

Statistics: Posted by RumJohn — Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:40 am

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-29T16:00:05+00:00

John 51 - I am sure your logic is unassailable, but I have a hard time convincing myself to spend money on something I already have or can readily make. I still have a dozen packets of Champagne and Cuvee yeast... But, if it's going to take weeks and weeks to get them to ferment and clear, I suppose that just makes your point stronger.... heh

I'll have to noodle on it.

Statistics: Posted by Cherry Yidaki — Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:00 pm

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-29T15:50:18+00:00

Hi, aidenmac!

From my notes (I can't remember that far back) I reveal all - including my embarrassing brain error of thinking I need acid to lower my ph:

Wash#1 5-gal sugar wash Date: 12/4/2013

5 gal. Water

6.5 pd sugar

1 tsp acid blend

1 tsp yeast nutrient

Starting SG: 1.052 (Notes: Not sure about ph readers/ings)
Starting temp: 83.8F
Starter: 10 cups wash, 1 packet Redstar Pasteur Champagne yeast

12/4/13 – Add half the starter to better bottle. 75F After 2 hours, slow bubbling' At 6 hours added .5 tsp nutrient and another package of yeast. Shook to aerate. Shows lots of bubbles and is now opaque.

12/5/13 – Still desultory fermentation. Stirred. 77 F, 1.058 SG, ph 6 (strip). Added 1 tsp baking powder. 5 hours after baking soda added, visible active micro-bubble rushing at the top.

12/6/13 – stirred, got lots of bubbles. Almost puked. 78F, 10.056 SG, 7.2 ph. Appears to be gaining strength.

12/7/13 – Stupid me. I should be adding acid to drop the ph. Stirred, got good bubble rush. Not as much as yesterday, though. 74F, 7.24 ph, 1.058 SG Added 1 tsp baking soda, 2 tsp acid blend.

12/8/13 – Very slow activity this morning. Stirred. Got a decent bubble rush. Noticeably more active after a few hours.

12/9/13 – Reasonable activity. Stirred, good bubbles. 75.7 F, 1.052 SG, 5.85 ph

12/10/13 – Reasonable activity. Noticed a viscous, glycerine-like, stringy, “slime” when taking readings. Tasted sweet and yeasty. 74.6F, 1.052 SG, 5.82 ph. Reading suggests it might be infected with bacteria, but as long as it is fermenting well, I will let it keep perking. Also read that you don't need to, or should, stir a sugar wash after the initial stir. So, I'll stop stirring.

12/11/13 – active. Heater keeps popping reset. Put heater belt around both better bottles.

12/12/13 – Steady activity. 81F

12/13/13 – Same

12/18/2013 – Steady activity. Took Brew Belt off to use exclusively on Wash #2 last night.

12/19/2013 – Steady activity. Appears to be starting to clear, maybe.

12/23/2013 – Continues with a steady fermentation. Has cleared to the appearance of strong lemonade.

12/24/2013 - strengthening activity.

12/28/2013 - 1 bubble/8 sec. Appears a translucent white. Tastes sweet/sour/winey/watery. Less slime than wash #2, but sweeter. 74.8F (no brewbelt), 5.35 ph, 1.018 SG. Degassed via bubbling, 1 hour later activity 1 bubble/8 sec. Washed everything down with oxyclean.

12/29/2013 - Added 2 tsp nutrient. Put in jar with 150 ml warm water and shook well, then poured into bottle. Instant, extravagant foaming. Some puke-over.

Wash#2 – 5-gal sugar wash Date: 12/5/2013 1530 hrs

5 gal. Water
6.5 pd sugar
1 tsp acid blend
2 tsp yeast nutrient
1 tsp baking soda

Starting SG 1.058 Notes:
Starting temp: 97 F
Starting ph: 6 (strip)

Starter: 10 cups wash, 1 packet Redstar Pasteur Champagne yeast. 85F After 2 hours, slow bubbling' At 6 hours added .5 tsp nutrient and another package of yeast. Shook to aerate. Shows lots of bubbles and is now opaque.

12/5/13 – Add half the starter to better bottle. After a few hours there does seem to be activity. After 5 hours, definite activity.

12/6/13 – Stirred. Not many bubbles rising. 79.8F, 1.066 SG, 7.6 ph. Added 1 tsp acid blend. Immediate bubble release with that.

12/7/13 – Stirred. Better bubble release than yesterday. Stupid me, I should have been using acid to lower ph. 74.4F, 6.46 ph, 1.062 SG. Added 2 tsp baking soda, 3 tsp. acid blend.

12/8/13 – Stirred. Got an ok bubble rush. Slow, steady fermentation.

12/9/13 – Ok activity. Stirred, ok bubble rush. 75 F, 1.062, 6.45 ph – added 1 tsp baking soda.

12/10/13 – Stirred. Medium good activity. 73.9F, 1.062 SG, 6.0 ph. Noticed a viscous, glycerine-like, stringy, “slime” when taking readings. Tasted sweet and yeasty. Reading suggests it might be infected with bacteria, but as long as it is fermenting well, I will let it keep perking. Also read that you don't need to, or should, stir a sugar wash after the initial stir. So, I'll stop stirring.

12/11/13 – active. Heater keeps popping reset. Put heater belt around both better bottles.

12/12/13 – Steady activity. 81F

12/13/13 – Same – less than Wash #1. Added 1 tsp baking soda

12/18/13 – Activity noticeably decreased. Stirred and got little foam-up. Decided that I needed to “bomb” it. Crushed up a bunch of Rice Chex (maybe 1 pint) because I think some “bulk” for the yeast to chew on may be missing. Also, two packs champagne yeast (didn't want to put in a competing yeast) and 1 tsp citric acid.

When I added it, I tried to stir it down. The vigorous stirring whipped loose a bubble storm that started foam and slime pouring from the bottleneck. It looked like it wasn't going to stop anytime soon, so added run conditioner (surfactant) which calmed it down quickly. Cleaned up the mess. Put the brew belt around this bottle alone. Noted that the runoff smelled a little like alcohol for the first time. Hope it keeps going well. Don't think I'll do a pure sugar run in future. I think it needs something in it.

12/18/2013 – Good activity. Best of anything so far. 1 bubble/3 sec through airlock. Foamy cereal mat/cap floating on top. Stirred it around a little.

12/19/2013 – Pounding away. Most of the cereal cap has dropped.

12/23/2013 – Fermenting strongly. Just a few scraps of cap left on top. Perhaps starting to clear a little.

12/24/2013 - Steady fermentation.

12/28/2013 - 1 bubble/3 sec. Tastes sweet/sour/winey/slimy. Looks like yellowish skim milk. 82F, 4.94 ph, 1.006 SG. Degassed via bubbling. Activity unchanged. Washed everything down with oxyclean.

12/29/2013 - Added 3 tsp nutrient. Put in jar with 150 ml warm water and shook well, then poured into bottle.

At this time - which is about 7 hours after adding the last nutrient to both bottles, I would say the activity seems basically the same as it has been: 1 bubble/7-8 sec for Wash#1, 1 bubble/3-4 sec for Wash #2.

Incidentally, the cornmeal jugs have slowed their pace a little, but are still doing good at 1 bubble/2-3 sec (for the one. I don't have a cork the right size for the other, so there's a holed balloon covering it).

I am intending, once I have fermenters freed up again, to start a couple red lentil wash, using your recommended ph buffering technique, since I've now found and read it. I'll do one with champagne yeast, the other cuvee, to see what the difference is there. Once I run out of my old yeasts I think I'm going to try out bread and brewer's yeasts.

Thanks for your insights and help - and patience with newbie confusion, kerfuffle, consternation.

Statistics: Posted by Cherry Yidaki — Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:50 pm

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-29T15:06:56+00:00

Easiest way is to do a bulk buy of Vodka Star and stop worrying about ferments until you've got the distilling down. Then you can get back to diy ferments.

Look at it this way, say someone that has never been in a kitchen before. They have a choice between 1) a prepack bread mix or 2) a recipe book and a load of different flours and other ingredients.

Best potential loaf is obviously 2) but the best loaf a newbie baker can actually make that day is 1)

Statistics: Posted by John51 — Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:06 pm

Re: Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

2013-12-29T09:29:19+00:00

Just reading back through your posts I can't find any reference about preparing the yeast for pitching. This prompts a couple of Q's in my mind;
1 Did you make a yeast starter or just pitch the dry yeast?
2 Did you aerate the wash before pitching the yeast? Yeast needs oxygen to grow and reproduce before it can do the job we want it to do.

Plus, in a sugar wash you'd need to add a bit more than a few teaspoons of nutrient to sustain a Champagne yeast, that's part of the reason the ones with the cornmeal seemed to work better.

My Lentil wash came about as a result of problems I was having with issues like crashing pH and unfinished ferments, etc. The lentils provide all the nutrients required and the pH looks after itself. However, if you have a genuine problem with pH you need to fix it at the start of the wash.

I know from bitter experience that chasing after a crashing pH, when a wash has stalled, is never going to produce a satisfactory result and throwing an acid or a base into the wash will only provide a temporary solution. Better to avoid the problem in the first place

I'd be very interested in your answers to the 2 Q's above

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:29 am