StillSmart

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-31T21:26:47+00:00

This has become far too technical for me!
By trial and error I arrived at around 75-100 g of cleaned up barrel staves sawn and split into matchsticks,or some big matchsticks to age 5 litres of my whisky.
HTH

Robert.

Statistics: Posted by Easydrinker — Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:26 pm

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-30T06:06:28+00:00

Other than the aesthetics of presentation, the cost of most small new barrels weighed against their useful life would appear prohibitive

Yes indeed that was the conclusion I came to. I use dominoes and SS

Statistics: Posted by Mash — Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:06 am

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-29T20:02:47+00:00

"250mm x 20mm x 20mm "

There seems to have been a confusion between mm & cm?

My fault. Having started with mm I somehow finished using cm.

Millimmeters were intended.

Statistics: Posted by Toper — Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:02 pm

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-29T16:48:56+00:00

The suggested dosage is 100 2cm. 25 x 2 x 2 = 100. 10,000 2cm would be enough for 100L.

And yes, one litre in 2cm is 10,000.

Chuck

Statistics: Posted by chill — Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:48 pm

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-29T15:52:53+00:00

Fascinating stuff! Much of which lends me to wonder the value of purchasing one's own barrel.

If, due to reduced size, there is a more rapid ageing, then does it also mean a more rapid denaturing of the interior? There appears to be no effective way of ever re-furbishing/ re-charring it,

Other than the aesthetics of presentation, the cost of most small new barrels weighed against their useful life would appear prohibitive

A online supplier of oak dominoes, who was been mentioned previously in this forum ,ventures an estimate for how much oak, in dominoes, might be used.
I quote:
“After a bit of research for 1 litre ( not set in stone I may add ) the nearest I can find out to be the equivalent of the interior of a 55/65 gallon barrel is 250mm x 20mm x 20mm This is the approximate area of wood in contact within that amount of liquid inside the barrel.”

This suggested dosage of a surface area of 10,000 ² cm per litre would appear to be a reasonable starting point to work from. Although it is something over 65 years since I did any arithmetic, isn't 10,000² cm simply an expression of a volume of 1 litre in ²cm?

Of course, as well as the degree of concentration of flavour from a given mash, as often mentioned by others here, also equally important, are the strength of the distillate, the degree of char/flame together with the length of time such dominoes are left immersed.

For myself, my own rate of consumption makes it difficult to make direct comparative tastings from one aged run to another, so I rely on my memory of the taste of a given oaking. As yet, I haven't had a run which I could have described as 'over-oaked' Timidity and haste could be telling factors here, but I am still feeling my way, taste wise, to the optimum finish......for me.

Statistics: Posted by Toper — Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-29T12:30:21+00:00

I'd love to get my hands on a second hand port barrel, or even a few staves from an ex barrel. One of my favourites is the glenmorangie Quinta Ruban, I'd love to have a crack at my own

Statistics: Posted by Benoit — Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:30 pm

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-28T23:49:23+00:00

Soz mate,
We aren't agreeing.
I am saying that the barrels, (now mostly American ex Bourbon barrels used once, to age Bourbon for 3 years), get used for 10 years,Scottish first fill, then emptied.
Used again for 10 years, the 2nd fill, etc.
Until the head honcho thinks that they need some work.

And looking at the global market, and who owns what, shipping your used barrels from the US to Scotland to re-use them in another branch of your business is sound economics.
Or chop them up and sell them as chips for the BBQ market.
Bourbon by law has to go into new barrels and age 3 years.
Scottish single malt generally is aged 10 years in a re-used barrel.
The reason that Port and Sherry barrels are not so much used anymore is clear to see, sadly.

Robert.

Statistics: Posted by Easydrinker — Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:49 pm

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-28T08:05:59+00:00

Easydrinker wrote:
In Scotland's Malt distilleries barrels often go on to "third fill",sometimes fourth or fifth after being used previously, that is minimum 30-50 years,after what came before.
Re-charring takes them further.
A total re-build, twice, gives them a theoretical life in excess of 150 years.
Can we safely assume that these guys know what they are talking about?

Damn you Robert I think we are agreeing.

The real oak 'wow' is a combination of oak and toast. And fades at an alarming rate, in the first few years. Re-charring takes them further of course.

Just 'cos they are in a barrel for 50 years doesn't mean the oak flavouring continues - they need something to keep the stuff in

New barrels are A HUGE INVESTMENT so they get the best out of them - and that girls and boys is why cheaper stuff is in stainless with oak dominoes, staves or racks.

Statistics: Posted by Mash — Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:05 am

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-28T01:08:06+00:00

Mash wrote:
A barrel only 'gives' flavour for about 3 years. After that it is pretty much just a vessel.

Barrels are cycled and contents transferred to get certain flavour profiles.

Over oaking is much easier to do when you are using dominoes or chippings.

I am going to totally agree with Mash's 3rd line.
And totally disagree with his first.
We haven't clashed for a time!

In Scotland's Malt distilleries barrels often go on to "third fill",sometimes fourth or fifth after being used previously, that is minimum 30-50 years,after what came before.
Re-charring takes them further.
A total re-build, twice, gives them a theoretical life in excess of 150 years.
Can we safely assume that these guys know what they are talking about?

Chips and dominoes is where you will mess up.

Robert.

Statistics: Posted by Easydrinker — Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:08 am

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-27T15:46:31+00:00

Yeah. Let it breathe for a week or so then you could do a blend is glass. Use a syringe for accuracy and record the ratio's. Taste test. Once you have it right... Blend.

Statistics: Posted by Mash — Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:46 pm

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-27T13:35:24+00:00

I suspect that is NEARLY the right answer. More goes on in the conventional barrel than just extracting flavour.

Now in our context I suspect that you would need to dilute it with aged, but unoaked, whisky.

I wouldn't mix it with fresh of the still whisky. Perhaps treat it almost as if it were a flavour essence if it is really woody.

Statistics: Posted by Myles — Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:35 pm

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-27T10:23:04+00:00

So would the best way to remedy an over oaked product be to 'dilute' it down with unoaked product?
or just try and leave it?

Statistics: Posted by Brewhunter — Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:23 am

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-27T07:46:03+00:00

A barrel only 'gives' flavour for about 3 years. After that it is pretty much just a vessel.

Barrels are cycled and contents transferred to get certain flavour profiles.

Over oaking is much easier to do when you are using dominoes or chippings.

Statistics: Posted by Mash — Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:46 am

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-27T05:10:45+00:00

It is probably subjective, up to a point. After that it is probably just objectionable. I've over oaked a few things to the point where I considered it undrinkable. Longer time in a barrel won't necessarily result in over-oaking. The ratio of liquid to wood and if the barrel was new or not come into play. After a certain point, the alcohol will have extracted all there is to extract from the wood in terms of oaky flavours. After that, the changes come from slow chemical reactions as things break down and re-form. Or rather, I assume that is what is happening. When I have over-oaked things, it has happened in the first few weeks or months.

Statistics: Posted by chill — Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:10 am

Re: Over Oaking?

2016-03-27T01:02:45+00:00

Toper wrote:
Every so often the term 'over oaked' is used. Can this be a categorical condition as against a matter of relative, personal preference?

And there my friend,I believe that you hit the nail on the head.
Assuming that 'over oaked' merely means a "woodier" flavour, then it must be a subjective appraisal?

Robert.

Statistics: Posted by Easydrinker — Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:02 am