StillSmart

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2014-01-31T04:58:01+00:00

@Aidan
hi mate, anything I can add to your knowledge is a good thing indeed!

+1 CC. I know a lot of scotch is aged in Am Oak ex-bourbon barrels and these are the ones that were light toasted usually...., but some use Oloroso sherry, tawny port and even straight charred new barrels. I wouldnt expect any leave their hooch in a sherry or port cask for too long though. I am very fond of the quarter cask idea too, esp as they seem to be well aged/used.

It all depends on the profile one is after I expect. Having said that, I now reckon a combination of reuse alligator char and first use HT (or MT) gives a combination of dry and sweet notes (apologies if these terms are bollocks...but I trust you know what I mean) to a good grain spirit; and that'll do me, prior to barrelling.....my own triplewood.

Statistics: Posted by Frank — Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:58 am

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2014-01-30T09:48:20+00:00

My understanding of single malt Scotch whisky is that the recipe of the wash,the pot still design,and the source of the water used to let the spirit down after aging are the main contributers to the taste.
Collecting the strip down to very low percentages may play a part,-the Islay distilleries collect to 1%,Bunnahabhain go lower.
The different barrels used can add something,hence the bottles sold as "Port wood Finish" etc,but most production runs are a mix from many different casks,from the same distllery,with the aim of ensuring the distinctive character of its product.

I found this fascinating,
http://distillers.tastylime.net/library ... tfiles.htm

Robert.

Edit;
By production run,I mean bottling run.
I don't know of a blended (non-single malt) Scotch that doesn't include some malt.
90% of all Scottish malt whisky distilled goes to blend with cheaper non malted whisky.

Statistics: Posted by Easydrinker — Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:48 am

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2014-01-30T08:40:16+00:00

aidanmac wrote:
I note that Scotch distilleries age their Whisky mostly in used Bourbon barrels but I'm not sure if they re-toast them, any idea on this.

Capt-Cudellez wrote:
Some do, some don't. They will use a first fill bourbon, then reuse the same barrels, then maybe again for a third time. Others only use sherry, like glenfarclas, totally shunning that "horrible" 'Merican whiskey.

Thanks for the input CC, I've followed your reports of your visits to the various distilleries as you posted them but I was never quite sure if I was understanding the mechanics employed in ageing the whiskeys vis-a-vie the use of barrels from Sherry, Wine, Bourbon, Port!

As I said, we use neutral spirit and used bourbon barrel chunks to extract a flavour into the neutral that is nothing like any Scotch Whiskies I've ever tasted. So I was wondering do distilleries move the Whisky from one type of pre-used barrel to another to create their unique flavour profile or do they age them in whatever barrel and then blend the different outcomes to match the desired profile

I'm not a Scotch drinker, as of now, and I'm not going to be trying to re-create someone else's Whisky when I move over to grain but I do hope to produce a Scotch style Whisky much the same way as I now produce a very enjoyable Bourbon style Whisky which is more to my liking than any of the commercial offerings

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:40 am

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2014-01-29T20:53:06+00:00

aidanmac wrote:
I note that Scotch distilleries age their Whisky mostly in used Bourbon barrels but I'm not sure if they re-toast them, any idea on this.

----------------------

Not asked to me, but I've been to 8 scotch distilleries in the past 3 years so I'll chime in.

Some do, some don't. They will use a first fill bourbon, then reuse the same barrels, then maybe again for a third time.

Others only use sherry, like glenfarclas, totally shunning that "horrible" 'Merican whiskey.

If a barrel need to be re-coppered then it will normally be re-charred to extend its life, is what I've seen at the speyside cooperage and the in house cooperage at Balvenie.

Statistics: Posted by Capt-Cudellez — Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:53 pm

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2014-01-28T09:35:11+00:00

Hey Frank! long time no read

Sorry I haven't been around your neck of the woods lately but I've barely had enough time, since December, to keep up with traffic here.

Anyway, your post is timely for me as I am just preparing to start grain operations and I'm sure I'll be using LME as part of my recipes but the 6 Row Barley is a no-no here. Having said that, your methodology is very useful for me.

I note that Scotch distilleries age their Whisky mostly in used Bourbon barrels but I'm not sure if they re-toast them, any idea on this. As you know, some of us occasionally use chips from Jack Daniels barrels soaked in Neutral to produce a quite good second generation Jack Daniels by soaking the flavours out of the wood and this has had me wondering will the use of American White Oak only work in making Scotch if one is blending whiskeys aged in different previous use barrels i.e. Port or Wine barrels as well as the Bourbon ones?

I'd appreciate your thoughts on this subject as I prepare to launch into serious grain brewing and distilling

AM

Statistics: Posted by Almanac — Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:35 am

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2014-01-28T08:59:10+00:00

My latest FSW variation follows....I reckon its my best yet (all things considered, not too difficult to achieve, methinks).

I used 2kg grain/3kg Pilsen LME/Safspirit whisky yeast per 20l as before.
This time, the grain was a 6row brewers malted courtesy of SBB he is not here (the provinance of which is a question he is best placed to help with). I spent a long time cracking it as thoroughly as I could in my kitchen wizz; which meant some dust (removed prior to mashing) but LOTS of cracked grain. I mashed @ 62Deg C for about an 45-55minutes (both time and temp trial courtesy of GTH findings 'on other forums
After plenty of sparging, I put a cupful of actual grain mash AND about 150g of light crystal malt (thanks Scarecrow) per 20l fermenter. I tried to kickoff the wash at around 28Deg C and hold it thereabouts for the entire ferment.

The ferments went very well and the wash had a different colour (reddish-brown), smell (definitely nutty) and taste (dry and grain/earthy on the palate) than previous FSW washes.

The stripruns were hasslefree and run @3lph max. I extracted 12l low wines from each 30l of wash....very tailish by then. I noticed a nutty smell here too, along with something toffee/caramel.

So 24l of lowwines, 4l of FSW feints and 7l of water made up my spirit run. The spirit run was not faster than 2lph from the fores onwards. I ended up with about 12l of spirit here and decided that about 7-8l were for oaking. I diluted this to 65% ABV and put in a combination of reuse charred and new heavy toast oaksticks. Two months in the demijohns coloured them up nicely.

Tastetest 1: wow, this is different to my experiments before. Really spicy/vanillan and a big grain mouthfeel. Also, smoother than I would've expected, at this stage.

Having emptied my barrel of existing FSW (bottled it, for drinking now and over the next few months) I refilled with this newly oaked spirit and now have about 20l @65% in there. That was six weeks ago.

Tastetest 2: I am very happy with the changes. I do miss the peaty undernotes of before BUT the overall taste is better layered (subtle,sweet initial hit->grain and spice in the mouth->dry finish) and smoother re 5-second mouthfeel.

3 months (minimum) in my barrel should make this a winner. :handgestures-fingerscrossed:

So......(and here's where the subjectivity/guesses hit 'overdrive') the 6row seemed to impart grainy (maybe dry) taste. it certainly appeared to add to the ferment/wash as did the longer mashing process. The use of crystal malt is a worthwhile consideration (although it does make it a bugger to fill your boiler). The use of heavy toast/charred sticks combo gives extra/complementary flavour profile.

Anyone whom can add some science to all this, please do....and I accept that this is now NOT on topic, re threadhead.

Statistics: Posted by Frank — Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:59 am

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2013-09-30T10:41:13+00:00

Mate...all good, you're welcome and PLEASE help out with 'refining' this recipe as I know its very close to being a winner....and many hands make light work etc

Meanwhilst, I'm going to peatsmoke my grain (again) and 'fiddle' with the oaking a little (eg pre soak charred sticks in port/dry sherry).

Statistics: Posted by Frank — Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:41 am

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2013-09-19T22:31:30+00:00

Yes,Thanks Frank
Informative and a well worthy post,maybe saved me a bit of time finding out the hard way.
Robert

Statistics: Posted by Easydrinker — Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:31 pm

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2013-09-17T22:54:10+00:00

Thanks for sharing!

Statistics: Posted by Keystone — Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:54 pm

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2013-09-17T14:47:51+00:00

You've become quite the whisky distiller Frank. Good on ya mate!

Chuck

Statistics: Posted by chill — Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:47 pm

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2013-09-17T10:08:08+00:00

Finally (for now) I then ran the same GP/Pilsen LME recipe as last time; including the cup of mash into the fermenter.
For the strips, I collected to 10l lowwines per 20l wash (the ABV% was seriously low at this point).
With 7l feints and about 10l water, this made for a bigger spirit run.
On the spirit run after 'heatup', I turned the burner down so low it was running at about 1.5lph for the heads....needless to say, this became a longday in the shed.
In the end, I collected 'about' 6l hearts and, again, it was immediately like a good quality result esp sans the peatreek. ops:
This time I changed up the oaking. I used 1 new charred stick, 2 reuse charred stick and 2 new MT sticks in with the hearts at 65% for about 2 weeks, then dropped the ABV% to around 62% for 2 weeks, the to 58% for 2 weeks.

This was recently 'barrelled' (too) but what I did notice was that there seemed to be a 'maple-like' foretaste to the oaked spirit that I had not noticed before.
Indeed I am keen to explore this further as it is a definite plus regarding flavour 'layering' (as all decent malt Scotchs have).

In summary here's what I have found:
Golden Promise malt is a worthwhile consideration.
The amount of LME can be varied, though its a good thing to include some, at least.
For peated Scotch lovers, malting Peat Smoked grain is the go, not using peatreek. A good bit of heavy charred oaking @65% is a worthwhile maturation addition too.
A very slow (ie around 2lph) final run using a significantly-diluted lowwines base with LOTS of feints is best regarding end product quality.
Pay particular attention to cutting the heads out of the drinking spirit....its a harshness that simply becomes counterproductive to enjoyment of the quaff.
Getting 'clever' with the oaking; namely use of a variety of 'cooked' oaksticks, perhaps varying the ABV% and employing the 'little quantity for a long time' oaking method works best.

This FSW recipe (and its variants like those above) has enormous potential to create a fine spirit, IMHO.
I like it lots....with a dash of water or a block of ice anyway.

Statistics: Posted by Frank — Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:08 am

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2013-09-17T10:07:11+00:00

So....time to mix things up some more.
Firstly I chose Scottish Golden Promise malt grain and Briess 'Pilsen' LME (both of these were recommended by my LHBS and GP seemed to be given favourable reviews in 'other' distilling forums.
Using 2kg grain (mashed) and 3kg LME per 20l wash and Safspirit Whisky yeast (as always), I also added a good cupful of mashed grain into each ferment.
Again, I took about 8l lowwines per 20l strip and similar quantities of feints and water added to the spirit run, as above....also, I added about 300ml peatreek essence and kept the entire run at near enough to 2lph.
This time I kept less as hearts (about 5l) and it was immediately obvious that the choice of Golden Promise was, well, promising (sorry) as the graintaste in the spirit was much more in keeping with Scotch. I also noticed the LME seemed to give a subtle hint of sweet; in fact, it seemed the best of all the LMEs I had tried.

6 weeks on charred oak made me aware that this was the fundamental base for future FSW trials, as the flavour balance seemed damn near good enough.
However, I also now noticed that the 'reincluded' peatreek was not up to expectations. It gave a good nose to the spirit but too much 'dirt' on the back palate..... (this had NOT improved some months later BTW)

Righto, its variations of Golden Promise malt and Pilsen LME (and no peatreek) then....and +1 a really diluted spirit run charge that is run as slow as possible too.

Statistics: Posted by Frank — Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:07 am

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2013-09-17T10:10:03+00:00

OK...next go I decided to try a few further variations....partly as my grain smoker and peatreek manufacturer was unavailable.
Instead of Aussie Traditional Ale Grain (Joe White), manually smoked, I used German Smoked malt (Bestmaltz) and UK Marris Otter malt grain, in 'equal parts' and I used about 3l of LME per 20l wash.
I took about 8l of lowwines per 20l wash (at around 3lph), and I noticed it ran with far less puke potential and a different smell (more hickory smoke than peat; no surprises there).
For the spirit run, I put 24l lowwines, about 6l feints and LOTS of water, enough to create a 40l charge and ran it at about 2.5 lph.
In the end, the heartscut and collected feints volume was lower (due, no doubt, to the lack of LME in the ferments) and the 'new' spirit was harsher/drier on the palate and a lot less peaty.
After a 5 week charred oak stick soak, the harshness was a lot less noticeable, though the flavour was far more 'neutral' than I wished for. A further soak made the spirit colour up nicely but I was left feeling as though the 'comparative' Scotch-taste was either lacking or too bland for my liking.

Hmmmm, why is it so? ... I asked questions and thought about it and reckoned
1. the choice of the smoked grain was not in the best interests of my preferred Scotch style....and the Marris Otter was a bit 'light on', flavourwise.
2. the lack of LME, whilst promising from a $ and puking POV, meant the ferments were lacking a bit of 'sweet on the tongue' which had added to the overall spirit IMHO.
3. I got too much heads in my 'keeper jar'.

Statistics: Posted by Frank — Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:06 am

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2013-06-07T21:58:33+00:00

I do strip runs down to 10% ABV. Some stop at 20%, others as high as 40%.
Everything is collected during a strip run. Even the foreshots.

amaark wrote:
In the write up about the strip run it says collect 1/3 volume as Low Wines then continue to 98 deg (just below water boiling water) as feints and that these should be circa 28% abv.

I haven't read the write up, but that sounds odd (for the above reasons I have stated). A strip run down to 20% should give you about 35% ABV.
On a 40 litre wash run @ 9% I took 200ml foreshots, 900ml heads, 3000ml of hearts @ 70% and 600ml tails (to 10%). Hearts started at about 80% and tails kicked in at about 65%.
This was done in my 4" hybrid still, detuned at 2.8 litres per hour.
Every still is different. ABV's will be relevant to your still/power/setup.

scarecrow

Statistics: Posted by scarecrow — Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:58 pm

Re: Islay-style Whisky Recipes

2013-06-07T13:07:09+00:00

Okay lads and indeed lasses (political correctness must apply) I have a question about Harry's Glenmorangie Clone recipe.

In the write up about the strip run it says collect 1/3 volume as Low Wines then continue to 98 deg (just below water boiling water) as feints and that these should be circa 28% abv. I ran this through the Pot Still calculator on HD. After collecting 1/3 volume at a nominal 10% wash the liquid temp is already above 98% and how you get to 28% abv for the feints has blown my mind.

Frank, I know you put your twist on the recipe and process, but as a beginner I can't align myself with the written original, never mind play around for my own variant.

Am I missing a trick here? I have tried on a few occasion's to work this out and each time I can't (AM you can get me back for the BBQ Tipple, non taken and non given I hope!!)

Statistics: Posted by amaark — Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:07 pm