StillSmart

When discussing cut off points for heads, hearts and tails, reference is often made to the % abv that one looks for.

Is this level of % abv the mean strength of the accumulated distillate or, the strength of the distillate emerging from the still at a specific point?

In other words, does one read from the collection vessel or from a parrot, if used?

Tony,

Welcome to the forum.

The quick answer is the strength of the distillate emerging from the still is what they are talking about.

It would be nice to think that you could make cuts by the strength of the output, but you can't.

People do talk about % for cuts but that figure should be used only as a guide and should be referenced to the type of still, strength of the wash, type of wash etc. etc.

The % ABV will be totally different for a pot still and a reflux still, and the % that cuts are made on a 8% wash in a pot still will be totally different when a 30 % wash is run in the same still.

If you are repeating the same wash consistently, you will develop an approximation for where the cuts will be, but its only that - an approximation.

Thank you for such a prompt response.

I am learning to use a 35L Copper Still, having, in the past, used a Smart Still. I use a malt wash.

I have recently read some basic information about the use of the Copper Still which suggests a first run (stripping?), cutting off at 18%. Followed by a second run, disposing of the first 100ml, and cutting off at 70%. This to be then aged, followed by dilution with distilled water to the finished strength required.

Does this appear to be a reasonable working method?

Toper wrote:which suggests a first run (stripping?), cutting off at 18%. Followed by a second run, disposing of the first 100ml, and cutting off at 70%. This to be then aged, followed by dilution with distilled water to the finished strength required.

Does this appear to be a reasonable working method?

Not quite.

The stripping run, just run the still as fast as you can and collect everything, the still will tell you when to stop collecting, the distillate will only be dribbling out and you will know when to stop, throwing more money and power at it will be a waste of time for the amount coming out.

Dilute the distillate back tp 30% and it is time for the spirit run.

This one you are going to run slow and easy with a broken thin stream coming out of the still.

This is where disposing of your first 100ml of distillate comes in, personally for a still of your size I would get rid of 200. These 100/200 ml fall into a category that is not included in the title of your post and these are "Fores", these should never be drunk and are nasty stuff, do not leave them around, label them as poisonous and put blue food colouring in them so they cannot get mixed up with anything else.

Once the fores have gone start, collecting the distillate in 300 or 400 ml samples in numbered jars / bottles. At the end of the run you will discover the tails, dirty smelling stuff, this is when I turn off the still.

Keep records of the run and note what the %ABV was when you changed the sample jars.

These jars and the %ABV in them will be a reference for making your heads to hearts cut and hearts to tails.

This is only a quick guide as to the outline methodology and what to expect. Everybody has there own system and as you read more posts it will become slightly clearer.

To give an alternative opinion, your suggested method may work just fine. I do my malt whisky in a similar fashion.
When you say cut off at 70% you still collect everything after this point and add it back in with the heads and stripped wash on the next spirit run.

As for determining where your cut off point is, as YHB suggests, this is down to your still and running speed, so dont settle on 70%, you will need to determine where tails start coming over by taste a smell (don't under estimate how difficult this is when starting out, but once you get it, you can spot those flavours and smells a mile away)

As for running at a broken stream, you see that suggestion a lot on the forums, and if drinking it very young it probably produces a better drink. Personally I like to run faster than that, with a thicker twisting stream, I increase the power incrementally when it stops twisting.
Running a bit faster will undoubtedly smear more heads into your product, but a little heads will smooth out with time on oak and a little air exchange. Tails will take much much longer to smooth out, which is why some Scotch guys that go all the way down to 64% really wont be good for drinking until 10 years or more.

Find what works for you, on your rig, and stick to it.

Quote beery bob
"So far, it seems, if I have it correct, a “stripping run” is a straight extraction of all the alcohol content from a wash, done as rapidly as possible?
The second, “spirit” run, is where one disposes of the “fores” and then controls the flow, by heat control, thereby influencing the finished taste?
Not having much in the way of storage facilities, I tend to drink as I go along."

Yes,you have the gist of it.
Just ensure that the drinking as you go along part is the good and safe stuff.
Home distillation to me is best described as experimentation,based upon certain guide lines; to my mind there are few rules,but lots of common-sense needs to be applied.
Read as much as you can,while you are learning,and then choose your own methodology.
No one person has it nailed,for any still,excepting for themselves and their own,maybe..
Happy stillin'
Robert.

Dunno if the server is throwing a wobbly tonight,but my response to this thread is showing up as Topers own response.
Fall over juice may be to blame.
Just for the records,this post and any confusion is seemingly down to me,and without deleting,I can't think of a way to correct this error.
Hands up,
Robert.


Robert.

Fixed the post easydrinker, the is something screwy with the system date, is about 5 months out, so had to adjust, your posing time is now different. So don't think you're going daft

Hi Easydrinker,

There something strange, as my posting, which you quote from in your first paragraph, has now simply vanished. It must have existed because you saw it!

I am still struggling with some of this process. If , having cut off your 'spirit run', one then runs off the 'tails' to place in the next 'stripped' wash, doesn't this mean that, over time, there will be an ever increasing element of tails in each ensuing 'spirit run'? Wouldn't this eventually have some effect on taste?

My comment, '...Drink as I go along' due to lack of long term storage facilities was really to do with Capt-Cudellez's statement that some methods require 10 years to be drinkable.

Thanks for your advice.

Toper wrote:I am still struggling with some of this process. If , having cut off your 'spirit run', one then runs off the 'tails' to place in the next 'stripped' wash, doesn't this mean that, over time, there will be an ever increasing element of tails in each ensuing 'spirit run'? Wouldn't this eventually have some effect on taste?

My understanding is the tails will have a smear of the good stuff in it which you will recoup a proportion of in the next run, So when your established with a few liters of tails added back into the pot from past runs, you need only collect and hold back the volume of tails you want to add back next run 4l?, the smear of good stuff will be gone by the time you stop collecting.

Toper,
There are various ways that Heads and tails can be dealt with in further spirit runs to try to extract the good stuff.
In commercial Malt whisky distilling the two are mereley labelled as feints,and run again,with the stripped wash,over and over again.
I do something similar with my attempts at whisky distillations.
My sugar and sugar-head Heads and tails get combined,adjusted to 30% and re-run,with very harsh cut off points.I get some BBQ lighting fluid,(call it heads of the heads)some decent spirit,and when I think tails are coming through,I switch off and junk everything that is left.
Others here have different methods.
Some don't recycle Heads and tails.
Some mix tails with strip,some do diluted heads only runs.
There is no hard and fast rule to follow here,other than only drink the good stuff.

Your second point is reassuring,I envisaged you,flat on your back with the still dripping into your mouth!
Yes,you can age spirit for a long time,but there are some cheaty ways to get around this,with pretty good results.
Aidanmac has a recent post on the forum concerning this,and a site search for "Nuking" will yield some interesting reading.
I hope that long ramble helps.
Nice user name by the way,I wonder how many here haven't noticed.
Robert.

Toper wrote:I am still struggling with some of this process. If , having cut off your 'spirit run', one then runs off the 'tails' to place in the next 'stripped' wash, doesn't this mean that, over time, there will be an ever increasing element of tails in each ensuing 'spirit run'? Wouldn't this eventually have some effect on taste?

It seems counter intuitive but the amount of heads and tails stays pretty static - they really are tiny tiny amounts of product that contaminate a much larger portion of good product - its just out distillation equipment is poor at separating them out.

It stabilises after about 3 cycles - after that you get about the same amount of heads and tails on each spirit run - a tiny amount of heads and tails from the previous runs make it into the hearts cut each time, this is some of what what gives the the finished spirit the character - and where you make your cuts is why you get lots of different styles whiskys from just Malt, water and yeast.

As you say, '...Counter intuitive.'. I am still trying to get my head round the arithmetic. Of course, I can understand that an experienced person, working on their taste and smell could well be taking differing amounts of heads and tails from what otherwise would have been consistently similar washes, thus compensating for this running addition of tails.

Probably, I am still hung up with using the % readings which I mentioned in my opening post. Whilst not yet having put any method into practise as yet with my new still, this % method seemed to suggest that not only would one have an ever increasing element , by volume, of tails in each spirit run but also, that there would be an incremental increase in actual volume of 'stripped' product for subsequent spirit runs.

My intention, for my first attempt, is to perform what might be termed a 'corrective' run and comments and advice would be greatly appreciated.

I have at present some 20 litres of 40% abv product produced from malt washes by means of a Smart Still. In each 4litre run, I discarded the first 10ml, meaning that over all, I have discarded a total of about 100ml. The distillation with the Smart Still was to the present 40% abv, so there could well be plenty of tails in it?

The idea is to run this 20litres (all perfectly clear) through the new still, to see what improvement I can achieve.
Should I dilute down first?
Should I do a stripping run?
Not yet having a developed 'nose' for detecting tails, can I use temperature, heat control, alcometer readings and flow rate to ascertain the cut off to prevent too much in tails coming over?

For advice on first run, the responses seem to be getting into advance distilling. Perhaps it is time to take step back and a deep breath.

Should you do a stripping run?

Yes - this will be your first run on the still, use it as a learning curve. You do not have to worry about reusing fients - you have not have any to worry about yet.

Smell the distillate as it comes off the still, fores, heads,hearts and tails. If you are like everyone else on their first run you will not be able to tell the difference. But that is what this run is all about -learning. Use it to get to know the power settings and the flow to the condenser.

At the end of the run you will have a bottle of fores heads hearts and tails all mixed up together, try an resist the temptation to sample it it will give you the mother of all headaches.

Next batch - repeat the process - another stripping run.

Combine the outputs from the two stripping runs and dilute to around 30%ABV.

Now the spirit run.

Thanks YHB. I feel a little more confident in getting started.

Do I dilute my 20 litres of 40% abv before starting the stripping run? As my still has a capacity of 35 litres, even diluted I should manage the strip run in one go.

I take it, from previous contributions, that this run should be done quite rapidly and finished when it is felt all alcohol has been stripped out of the wash.

The second, 'spirit' run would then be the first time that I collect tails for adding to the 'stripped.' output of a subsequent distillation?

Sorry Toper-that really is a nice name.

I totally missed the point about you having 20 litres of 40%.

But thinking about it, I still believe that it is a good move to learn how to run your still before diving into a spirit run.

So yes, dilute half of your wash and strip it again, just so that you appreciate the process and how your still reacts to varios adjustments.

Once again sorry for not reading your post more closely and confusing you.

With regard to adding the tails to the next run, that is something that I have never done, I can never bring myself to put the evil smelly stuff back into the pot, it goes down the drain. Everyone has a different system.