StillSmart

Either you think I'm wrong - I may be, who knows, but we can certainly check. Or you think the permanent inbuilt error (of 5% in this case) is unimportant. I can think of no third option.

Third way. Science and experience often differ.

As a qualified winemaker, I have experienced this before, some use numbers, some use artisan skill.

Doesn't make either wrong, but this is a forum mainly IMO of like minded artisans not scientists, who will craft superb products using many measures. Math, experience, perception and olfactory senses.

Perhaps we can help each other here, rather than trying to win decimal points

Mash wrote:Perhaps we can help each other here, rather than trying to win decimal points

Nothing I'd rather do. A thread came up asking for a guess, I made the best guess I could, got told I was wrong, explained myself and got steamrollered for it. Not for the first time, either, though it's always the same chap who does it. I doubt he'll respond to my question.

I hope to continue to benefit from the artisan skill on this site. All I raised an eyebrow at was a consistently inaccurate website calculator elsewhere. 5% is not a decimal point, it's a problem.

spot wrote:I doubt he'll respond to my question.

I bow to your superior knowledge in chemistry, and I'll leave it at that.

@ Spot. I maybe throwing my 2 cents worth in a little late - but what the hell.

I don't use an online calculator, but I arrived at 12.209. Considering the results of the 3 washes was averaged out and quite probably a close approximation rather than an exact measure, I am not sure why this subject is still being discussed.

The 12.209 that I use here has not allowed for cuts, loss or angels share.

One of the things that is so interesting about craft distilling is the individual interpretation of time and measurement to determine when enough is enough. If a distiller uses the same recipe repeatedly, and is consistent with his distilling, his product could well develop a finger print that is different from his mate up the road who if using the same recipe.

This is an exacting science only to a certain degree. To turn it into a laboratory production, like Bacardi, would not only take the fun out of it but would remove the "finger prints".

12 ish was a fine answer and 5% plus or minus is neither here nor there. I confess 10 would have been my guess (total before cuts).

Bottom line is that some of us are doing science and some are doing art and neither is wrong.

Hearts can be between 50% and (maybe) 70% of total distill depending on taste. Some folk will drink 90% They're not wrong, they just want alcohol over discerned taste.

The current problem is that the scientists/chemists who are new to the art are stating opinion as fact when their experience is insufficient and so they are riling and offending the artists whose experience they are disregarding.

Any idiot including me can make cheap or commercial alcohol using maths and make substantially better among friends here. That doesn't give me or anyone else here automatic credit for waving their masters or phd badge in front of a 5 or 10 year experienced distiller and blender.

Edit : in case of doubt, that was aimed at you Spot. You obviously know your theory, but you are constantly disrespecting everyone else when you know nothing about practical brewing, distilling, blending and flavours

Expect Robert'll be back from rounding up his chooks shortly......

SO..
Last night (Thursday),I tried to tap a response into this thread.
Trying to be tactful, it called upon a great amount of refreshment in the drafting.
I awoke Friday morning blowing 3 times over the new Scottish alcohol limit,(Alco Sense Pro,highly recommended!),
and found my effort unposted.
Textarea Cache preserved it. I have re read it several times now, and submit, with all the best intentions.

Robert.

OK.
I am wading in with moderator tools and foreknowledge.

Spot, Please stop causing dis-harmony, even if your social skills don't see it that way.
What you may consider to be differences of opinion, are seeming to be serious slights to longtime users.
It would seem that you may have a science grounding, that does not count for shit on here.
Experience, not theory in home distilling is what this site is about.
And friendly banter.
We try to be the friendly site, there are some which assuredly are not, try posting here http://homedistiller.org/forum/ if you want to discover unfriendly.
If you would like a place to chat with new found mates, then may I suggest that you take some time and reflect?
The folk here are mostly self learned, site helped and love to share.
Really, any more perceived upset on this site, and I will pull out the Yellow card, and whatever colours follow before banning you,and any future name that you dream up.
Censure is a terrible thing.
So is bad behaviour.
The ball is in your court.

Robert.

As a new comer to this hobby I have found this to be the friendliest and most informative forum around. People here don't talk down to someone without experience or make them feel like they're stupid for asking questions. They are patient and well grounded and it generally seems to take a lot to wind them up. Forums are great places for expressing opinions on how to do something but often, it seems, there are many different ways and approaches to achieve basically the same results.

I would like to be able to 'craft' some decent alcohol and my aim is to be able to make some really nice gins. I don't have a science or maths degree, I am an artist/craftsman so my approach is try it and see. Provided I don't blow myself up, if something doesn't work what have I lost? A few quid in ingredients and some time - it's not the end of the world. I fully expect to make mistakes as I learn and if my spirit turns out at 38% or 42% abv instead of the standard 40% abv who really cares? If it tastes good, that's what counts in my book.

If some online calculator is slightly out and you find slightly too much water has been added to your neutral does it really matter? No, you learn and move on and next time make the adjustment accordingly; that's what 'crafting' does and often it gives serendipitous results, whereas sometimes religiously following a formula can result in something characterless and sterile. If maths and science are your thing and you get good results, great! But if someone works by "a little bit of this and a little bit of that" and also gets great results then more power to their elbow.

It takes all sorts in this world and there are already too many people who want to ram their opinions down the throats of others (either religiously or politically) and I'd rather my new hobby didn't become another place for antagonism or conflict. That said, if someone finds a new way to do something and they want to share, great. But, if the way it's put across appears dogmatic then it can risk looking disrespectful to those who have spent many years perfecting what they do. Just look at some of the You Tube moonshiner vids to see that they can see exactly what proof a distillation is just by looking at the way the bubbles bead - no hydrometer in sight - experience counts for a lot!

I do have one last observation though and it so often happens on forums; the written word is so easy to misinterpret and get all hot under the collar over. Context often isn't there so, something we'd discuss or argue about down the pub together generally doesn't result in a falling out because other factors like intonation and body language come into play. On a forum we don't have that advantage so we have to be very careful how we express our thoughts or there can be unnecessary falling outs. Just my opinion, for what it's worth (and I know, that ain't a lot, lol!)

My-my-my...
I never thought I'd see anything like this on here. I've seen it a number of times on other sites, last year I was told not to mention a guys name on a site as he was banned..how sad, childish is that?

As a fairly long standing member of this site, may I suggest that you lock it Robert...that's my 2 cents.

I think that I see your point on locking the topic Iceman, not sure that I agree.
The point that springs to mind here is not that posters have to agree with other posters on the site, but what is important is the way that they voice disagreement.
Doing it with respect, and stated reasons seems OK by me, reasons be right or wrong.
I have clashed with other users here,sometimes I have been in the wrong, and learned from speaking, sometimes privately, that really we are on the same page, just seeing things differently.
This thread may have wandered far from topic, but I am minded to leave it be right now.
And I hope that in doing so, any rifts or fractures are helped to mend.

Here's hoping.

Robert.

different opinions guys...that's life, but in life there is no real right or wrong on almost everything, we should all respect each others posts and if in your opinion they are not correct we should comment in a respectful manner.
p.s, I have gained a lot from my OG post ...cheers,,,,be happy, we are all soon pushing up daisies.

LOL, too right there, life is too short for fighting, unless you have a cause worth dying for.
I don't think home distillation is one
Life is certainly too short for the members of this site to throw punches at each other!

Robert.

Thunderbird wrote:As a new comer to this hobby I have found this to be the friendliest and most informative forum around. People here don't talk down to someone without experience or make them feel like they're stupid for asking questions. They are patient and well grounded and it generally seems to take a lot to wind them up. Forums are great places for expressing opinions on how to do something but often, it seems, there are many different ways and approaches to achieve basically the same results.

I would like to be able to 'craft' some decent alcohol and my aim is to be able to make some really nice gins. I don't have a science or maths degree, I am an artist/craftsman so my approach is try it and see. Provided I don't blow myself up, if something doesn't work what have I lost? A few quid in ingredients and some time - it's not the end of the world. I fully expect to make mistakes as I learn and if my spirit turns out at 38% or 42% abv instead of the standard 40% abv who really cares? If it tastes good, that's what counts in my book.

If some online calculator is slightly out and you find slightly too much water has been added to your neutral does it really matter? No, you learn and move on and next time make the adjustment accordingly; that's what 'crafting' does and often it gives serendipitous results, whereas sometimes religiously following a formula can result in something characterless and sterile. If maths and science are your thing and you get good results, great! But if someone works by "a little bit of this and a little bit of that" and also gets great results then more power to their elbow.

It takes all sorts in this world and there are already too many people who want to ram their opinions down the throats of others (either religiously or politically) and I'd rather my new hobby didn't become another place for antagonism or conflict. That said, if someone finds a new way to do something and they want to share, great. But, if the way it's put across appears dogmatic then it can risk looking disrespectful to those who have spent many years perfecting what they do. Just look at some of the You Tube moonshiner vids to see that they can see exactly what proof a distillation is just by looking at the way the bubbles bead - no hydrometer in sight - experience counts for a lot!

I do have one last observation though and it so often happens on forums; the written word is so easy to misinterpret and get all hot under the collar over. Context often isn't there so, something we'd discuss or argue about down the pub together generally doesn't result in a falling out because other factors like intonation and body language come into play. On a forum we don't have that advantage so we have to be very careful how we express our thoughts or there can be unnecessary falling outs. Just my opinion, for what it's worth (and I know, that ain't a lot, lol!)

good post