New Oaking Containers

[Almanac]

I like that idea, I'll look into that. Thanks for the suggestion.

AM

[mozr]

I thought your idea had traction Aidan, and I am sorry about the result.

I can only infer that it is the natural expansion and contraction of the wood in normal atmospheric conditions that tease out the complexities. This might include the very elements that we and therefore the oak barrels 'breathe'. I would surmise that there is more expansion in contraction in wood, than there is in spirit, given normal daily temperature variation.

With this, I suppose there is a possibility of trying to control temperature to promote expansion and contraction. For example, leave the barrel on a temperature control heat mat, or put a blanket on it, then remove the heat. Repeat until 'aged'. One of the key things is to fill the barrel up to bursting, so the spirit only has one way to go when he barrel contracts.

I suppose if speeding up the aging process was possible, then JD would be doing it to maximise profit.

I have had a 2 litre jar of JD oak chips going for six weeks. I leave it on the kitchen side to piss the wife off, and it sits under the cabinet lighting, so has a reasonable temperature fluctuation.

I will let you know whether I get better results, like you have with longer aging.

[Almanac]

Undeterred by the setback I've decided to try allowing nature do the work for me.

I'm going to fill a Cornelius Keg with spirit and toasted American White Oak again. This time I will fill the keg completely to the top and when I put the lid in to seal the keg I will use a syringe to ensure the keg is completely filled and no air remains inside.

I'm hoping that natural atmospheric pressure changes and temperature changes will more closely simulate the conditions that exist inside the ageing barrels used in distilleries.

With hindsight I realise it was a little silly of me to think I would succeed with the original experiment because, as Mozr said, if speeding up the ageing process it was possible the JD's of the world would all be doing it - Duh!

AM

[Frank]

Aidan, great trial and good on you for continuing...
OK, sorry if I am wrong here but isn't part of the proven success of oaking barrels based on the total surface area of the oak that is in constant contact with the volume of desired ABV% spirit...+ time? (and, for sure, 'the angels share' grabbing the high alcohol)

If so, do you have any feel for how to successfully 'mimic' this in a non breathing stainless keg and adding oaksticks (ie quantity of oak added, maturity time etc)?

[Almanac]

You're not wrong Frank, however, I don't have access to, or room for, ageing barrels so I have to find a workaround. I'm not under any illusions here, I know that any alternative I come up with will be a compromise but I'm prepared to live with that.

The Cornie Kegs have a pressure release valve with a ring pull and I intend pulling the ring once every 24 hours during the storage period to equalise positive or negative pressure. Probably wasting my time but what the hell, I love messing around with my product - and drinking it too.

Hell!, I find JD BBQ chunks soaked in neutral alcohol for a couple of weeks makes good Whisky, so what do I know?

On some forums such sentiment would be considered sacrilege punishable by public flogging but I don't give a flying f*#k. I distill because I love it and I love making spirits that I enjoy more than commercially made shit and if I make a few cock-up's along the way I can live with that too

AM

[Frank]

C'mon Aidan, give us a clue...dont beat around the bush here...what do you really think?


I was interested in the amount of oaksticks and the duration you are going to try here as it seems to me that there MAY be something to this pressurised idea versus, say, aging the spirit in a typical glass demijohn.....but, as usual, I've NFI (and wonder too).

Anyway mate, good luck and good drinking

[mozr]

There must be a scientific ratio for alcohol surface area to surface area of toasted caramelised wood x amount of times alcohol is sucked into and spat out of the oak.

If you were to create a thin cylindrical toasted oak barrel and inserted 100ml of alcohol, filling the vessel, then I am sure it would 'age' more quickly as the ratio of oak surface area to alcohol would have increased.

As far as I am concerned small batch soaking on JD oak chips is VERY close if not better than the real thing. I have fooled many a drinker, including some knob who thinks he knows more than God.

If I could be arsed and clever enough I might try and mathematically work out the ratio in a standard barrel, and then apply that to the chips.

[chill]

I wonder if the opposite would work better: putting it under a small vacuum. This is an interesting article on the subject.
http://eater.com/archives/2011/08/22/se ... arnold.php

Chuck

[Almanac]

I tend to favour the science of trial and error I'll be introducing my toasted American White Oak in lengths of 450mm X 30mm X 5mm and see how they get on Real Bourbon Whisky is a medium to long term goal for me as there's no workaround or substitution for time.

I hope by mid 2014 to be making good progress towards a reasonable standard Bourbon and develop it from there.

In the meantime I'll be continuing using the JD chips but I will be using more and more grain to provide the fermentables in my washes and I'm going to do my first Rum in the next week.

SWMBO, my drinking buddy, has become completely disillusioned with Bacardi which, she says, is now almost indistinguishable from Vodka and I've no excuse now that my new workshop, & Brewery/Distillery is almost completed.

AM

[mozr]

I am totally with you missus on Bacardi Aidan.

Rum is the something I have not done yet to a level of satisfaction. I was bought two litres of Bacardi as xmas prezzies by a couple of people who I keep pissed throughout the course of the year that know this.

I could not believe the lack of smell and taste, especially smell.

I think they have tinkered with their margins, as it really is not that different to vodka.

Shame.

Hey ho, time to find a good molasses supplier.

[Admiral Toad]

There's no doubt that 5 and 10 litre barrels give you accelerated ageing compared to hogsheads etc rough maths confirms that so 3 to 6month ageing seems to work in these
And yes some bourbon chunks seems to be working really well too
On our new year vist to the Balvenie distillery (highly recommended dear but worth it book first only) they have their own cooperage where they disassemble the bourbon/ sherry etc barrels before reassembling
They look for the spirit line or sort of watermark in the staves. If too near the outer edge then they discard them not enough un touched wood to flavour the spirit. But remember the bourbon has been in there a few years already
So I guess there should be a good few uses in a new small barrel especially if you let soak in some sherry or port before each refill as the guy at Loch Ewe distillery told me
As an aside sherry casks for distilleries are getting hard to obtain so Balvenie are starting to fill new barrels with sherry as backup
There is even talk that the one use law of Bourbon barrels in America, a measure brought in to keep coopers in work in the 30s, may be about to be repealed after pressure from the Distilling industry over there
Now that will really rock the distillers over here

[Frank]

I was gifted a new 25 litre American oak barrel made 'locally' by a family of coopers (3rd generation now, I think). It was not 'fired'/treated in any way internally. After a few water rinses, I soaked it with dry sherry (subtle barrel rotations for many weeks) and then started to use it for whisky storage.

I found the first and possibly second cycle of spirit through the barrel was obviously improving the spirit (esp with regards to flavour layering) but also adding significant 'wood notes' and a certain astringency. Mind you I was basing my Scotch on a wheatgerm recipe (DWWG) then...so what would I know

Anyway, now that I've moved onto far nicer Scotch recipies.....
the last time-and-a-half I have put spirit in the barrel and given it some months, the conditioning has been outstanding and apparently rapid.....smooth, consistent and moreish within 2 months! I have no doubt this 'fill cycle' could sit in the barrel for a year or more and be all the better for it too (I just wonder if it will though)....

So, for sure there's an ideal duration to mature selected ABV% spirit on oak
AND, with a barrel at least, perhaps there's an ideal number of soaks BEFORE it works optimally too (?)

[Admiral Toad]

Bet that's a bonny barrel Frank
I noticed that at the Balvenie cooperage they burn/toast the barrels on a special machine quite spectacular when being used but you need one end open so impractical for us guys
Do me a favour give me the length and average diameter of your barrel and I'll play around with the maths

[Frank]

@AT sorry mate, seriously crazy weather here took out our internet transmitter (and dumped over 1000mm of rain in 2 days!) anyway....

Thank you; as you so generously offered....for your math, the barrel is 43cm long and 30cm diameter on the ends, approx 35 at the centre.

For ref: a lot of the copperage's wares are 'on show' here http://www.rolloutthebarrel.com.au/products.html#mature....and the 25l is there, somewhere.

When I get my proverbial (and the farm) together, I'll send you an actual photo of my barrel; if you like.

[Admiral Toad]

Hi Frank
I'm guessing that's roughly the overall dimensions

Could you take a guess at the internal dims please

BTW thanks for the encouragement