Air-tight vs breathable oaking

[Frank]

(cut-and-paste from another web forum...still, its ME askin')


Some 2 months ago, I took a freshly minted batch of AG whisky, diluted it to 65% and put portions in:
1. my oak barrel
2. a glass demijohn with oaksticks, lid off/loose
3. a glass demijohn with oaksticks, lid sealed

Recently, I have sampled all three (not blind-tested though) and here's what I think I found:
- the smoothest is the barrel stuff, though its likely due to mix of old and new spirit as much as anything else....however I reckon this would hold true regardless
- both demijohns had about the same colouration and the ABV% was very close to the same too however the 'lid off' spirit was noticeably less sharp/harsh on the palate and a fair bit less odourous than the 'lid sealed' spirit.

So....question time.....
is this possible/probable?
Why/why not?
Is this anything to do with said test being an AG and/or potstilling my hooch?
Would any differences be more marked over an extended oaking time (or less?).

Is any detrimental effect / differences simply because it is young spirit?


(BTW: my 'test' is continuing, I'd love feedback in the meanwhilst/beyond)

[Mash]

All alcoholic beverages wine & spirit benefit from breathing.
This is why ...
1. oak is preferred over glass or stainless steel.
2. Screw Tops failed in the first instance.
3. Plastic corks failed in the first instance
4. Australians are doing a lot good work with breathable plastics for long term storage.

Oak storage was never designed for flavouring. It was and unavoidable effect of storing in oak.

There is quite a massive amount of degradation after three years. After which an oak barrel becomes a vessel not a 'giver' of oaky-ness.

Wine is certainly (and spirits I am learning) ripen with age in air just like meat. The trick is to get them at their peak before they go over.

More time on oak generally means more flavour. Less oak and longer time equals smooth the flavour. Lots of oak for a short time equals more floor board flavour.

hmm.. Did I answer the question or just rant a bit :-)

[Easydrinker]

I would not presume to teach you about AG and whisky Frank.
Firstly,IMHO,the pot-stilling is the first flavour enhancer,after the wash ingredients and fermentation.
The results posted are what I would expect,and indeed have found,although I have yet to age in an oak barrel,-this is what I would expect.
The air-tight V's breathable to me is simple,-leave the lid or stopper loose.and let the "angels share" escape,as it would through a barrel.
Some caution may be required to the rate of loss of such higher alcohols,as these are what will be lost,to pace it to the long term evaporation from an oak barrel.
I would fully expect longer term aging to show more marked differences.

Without wishing to upset Mashy,who I recall from earlier posts of his,has much knowledge gained from wine storage in oak,I have a book about Scottish Malt whisky which gives a barrel a theoretical useable life of (I think I remember correctly..)160 years,being re-made twice in that time.
I am currently aging with pieces of un-charred barrels,which have not contained Scotch for 20 years,Bought as "spent barrels",I cut these pieces from the barrels myself,the barrels sit in the rain between times,the wood still smells of whisky,and these pieces do to my spirit exactly what I expect oak to do.

We have both ranted a bit there Mashy,but I think Frank was hoping for rsponses!

Robert.

[Mash]

No upset here.

[Mash]

Lets try some answers then


but before I do - ED - "Bought as "spent barrels".....I cut these into pieces ..... do to my spirit exactly what I expect oak to do.
Yes indeed. So would I - we are agreeing with each other.

So....answer time.....
is this possible/probable?
>> yes

Why/why not?
>> breathing is important and IMO does make a difference

Is this anything to do with said test being an AG and/or potstilling my hooch?
>> nope - all would be the same IMO. BUt some would potentialy need less aging if refinements are made to ferment & stilling processes.

Would any differences be more marked over an extended oaking time (or less?).
>> I would expect it to get smoother.

Is any detrimental effect / differences simply because it is young spirit?
>> Only in that it hasn't breathed /matured for so long

[Easydrinker]

@ Mashy,
Agreeing with you so far,this thread may get boring from here!
Leaving aside the fact that I believe Frank's question,answered by yourself at your point three above was comparing pot-stilling to reflux distillation spirits,in which we obviously expect a difference.

Robert.

[Mash]

LOL

I agree.

[Frank]

OK you two, back to your corners!!!

No, thank you for all comments, much appreciated and please may they continue....
and meanwhilst I reckon this little 'test' will provide further insights over months ahead.

May I respectfully request that it should be replicated elsewhere; i.e. beyond my meagre stilling efforts; for future comprative analysis (maybe).

[Frank]

OK....here 'tis (IMHO)
So, re blind sampling this time,
I have tried the 'barrel sample' again, BUT its way too different and far more worthwhile, and given that's my grog well....I know where the best result lies, for me it is with the barrel....
No matter; onto the demijohns; oaked/open vs oaked/closed
result is :confusion-shrug: same as before, in that the oakstick open 'sample' is both obviously improved to my way of tasting and also better per se; it is giving a much fuller mouthfeel/aftertaste w/out newbie issues, AKA it IS getting better ....
..whilst the closed sample is less harsh on the palate than before BUT this is as opposed to more impressive.

FTR: I reckon ALL said spirit has improved over this time, (...and so I will restate the obvious)

However that's truly subjective and with nothing further to learn here, move on (?)

[Mash]

Good update Frank.

What size is the barrel and how full is it?

[Easydrinker]

Barrel is now less full than before!
And the results are what I would have expected from Frank's trial.
Keep enjoying the sampling mate.

Robert.

[Frank]

Good update Frank.

What size is the barrel and how full is it?

Mate its a 25l American Oak barrel that, over the past two and a bit years, has had its contents 'cycled' about 3 times (although never completely) and is currently with around 22l @63%ABV in it.

BTW, I should have added to my previous post
- all sampling was done by firstly diluting to around 42%ABV & at close to room temp
- the airtight spirit had a far more pungent aroma than the open spirit, both in the demis AND once poured/diluted for sampling.
- I doubt if the differences I found would matter much to most folk, esp after 'a few' anyway.