MASHING.

[Toper]

I recently read that some commercial distilleries are known to use a wort of up to 10%abv.

Let me here apologise for any inadequacies in my arithmetic.

My 23 litre washes would require approximately 9 kg of peated malt to achieve this figure.

Assuming 10% abv is achieved, then a total of 2.3 litres of 100% alcohol is theoretically available.
This would provide for some 9.2 litres of 40% abv. In turn, this would give approximately 12 75cl bottles of 40%abv.

Therefore each bottle reflects flavour/phenols from .75 kg of peated malt. The less grain used, the less reflected per bottle.

However, to achieve a mash using 9 kg peated malt would require it seems, using 1.5qts per lb, more liquid than I could successfully run a mash within my 23 litre limit. Using less than this ratio would significantly thicken the mash making for, at the least, constant stirring to prevent clogging.

What is the lowest ratio of water to grain that anybody has used with success?

[Mash]

Hmmmm. Very good question. Thought provoking.
I have a BM20. So I 'could' do - in theory 6kg (max load) into about 15l (guesstimate).

It has also promoted another thought. Many AG brewers 'gather' a few leftovers. Leftovers trouble me. I bloody hate waste. This is caused by the fact you mainly by your grains in 1 or 2 kg batches rather than just measured amounts for recipes. This does lead to leftovers.

It seems obvious now, but a large mixed mash, then distilling it out solves the problem..

[Easydrinker]

I recently read that some commercial distilleries are known to use a wort of up to 10%abv.

Let me here apologise for any inadequacies in my arithmetic.

My 23 litre washes would require approximately 9 kg of peated malt to achieve this figure.

Assuming 10% abv is achieved, then a total of 2.3 litres of 100% alcohol is theoretically available.
This would provide for some 9.2 litres of 40% abv. In turn, this would give approximately 12 75cl bottles of 40%abv.

Therefore each bottle reflects flavour/phenols from .75 kg of peated malt. The less grain used, the less reflected per bottle.

However, to achieve a mash using 9 kg peated malt would require it seems, using 1.5qts per lb, more liquid than I could successfully run a mash within my 23 litre limit. Using less than this ratio would significantly thicken the mash making for, at the least, constant stirring to prevent clogging.

What is the lowest ratio of water to grain that anybody has used with success?

Allow me to cloudy the waters.
My own Malt washes use 4 and a tadge (0.166.) Kg in a TOTAL volume of 23 litres.
I wouldn't like to try more,as you say,too thick.
MY mashing IS primitive and involves MUCH stiring
More maths.
The last 25kg sack of malt that I brewed and stilled,using the feints receiver,from previous,(which lives on for the next) produced 15.5 litres @ 63%, no added sugar.
Assuming no loss from aging,(which I do get) that would dilute to almost 24.5 litres @ 40%, which is in turn almost 35 x 70cl bottles,divide that number into a 25Kg sack and get the answer of around .710Kg of malt affecting each bottle.

The numbers are not that simple though,I lose at least 15% of the alcohol by airing and aging.

The Islay distilleries that I try and mimic aim for washes around 7.5%.

The thought has just occurred by "commercial distilleries", do you intend to mean Malt distilleries?

Robert.

[RumJohn]

@ Toper:

Assuming 10% abv is achieved, then a total of 2.3 litres of 100% alcohol is theoretically available.
This would provide for some 9.2 litres of 40% abv. In turn, this would give approximately 12 75cl bottles of 40%abv.

Rerun your numbers. I get 5.75L, not 9.2 at 40% ABV

[Easydrinker]

Agreeing with RJ on these numbers.
I think that you have them wrong.

Robert.

[packapoo]

My regular cheat site tells me the same as RJ and Ed.

[Toper]

Thanks to all for the attention and my apologies for my arithmetic error.

As I age, I become more and more aware of of an increasing inability in this respect. Hence my comment, “Let me here apologise for any inadequacies in my arithmetic”. I can read and re-read at times, but, having made the error, I often continue to do so.

Thanks for politely pointing it out. Often it can be a point of ridicule.

Yes, it was Malt Distillers I had in mind and whilst a specific distiller was mentioned in the article I read, I cannot remember which.

The thoughts it provoked were:

1. How do they manage so a thick mash? Do they have an agitator to continually stir the wash?
2, How much difference in intensity of flavour is achieved by the increased malt content?

My own mashing process would well be considered primitive by the standards of equipment now available.. Indeed ALL my equipment might be considered so.

I don't buy in 1 or 2 kg lots, in fact I have at present 3 x 25kg bags of 'Château Whisky' awaiting my attentions. Whilst I, and others, do enjoy my product to date, I just wondered if I was missing out in not trying for a more concentrated mash.

[Blue_Duck]

I can see where your coming from Toper, iv'e just started a peated/malt
last night, i had the same thoughts as you. do i do 6x4kg mash or 5x5k,
4x6k, or even 3x8kg, i believe the g/father could manage it as it's a
recirc. system. I believe the big boys do use an agitator of some sorts
i'm sure i seen it on some you-tube site.

I asked myself the same question, will i get better flavour with an
increased malt bill, truth is i dont know, It'll give a better yield
that's all i can say for sure. I'm certain a 10% wash is a quicker
way to get through a sack of grain, saving on energy bills.

I think Mash's point about left over grain is due to the fact, he brews
a bit of beer. It can be a pain at times trying to decide what to do
with them before they spoil.

I went down the 6x4kg route as i had a plan worked out, but i think
i'll put this in the proper thread before i get carried away.

Cheers B_D

[Easydrinker]

Toper, I seem to recall a malt distillery using an agitator, a large rotating doo-dah in the mash tun.

I have found that the Chateau Whiskey Malt produces a superb drink done as 6 x 23 litre washes.
When suitably aired and oaked.

I believe my creation of an ongoing feints receiver and stripping down to 5% gives maximum flavour.
The FR is only a 5 litre DJ of Heads and Tails, whose ongoing ABV seems to remain at a steady 40% that is then added to two strips for a spirit run.
The Heads and Tails of that run are almost exactly 5 litres @ 40%, the rest is Hearts.
This cycle gets run 3 times per 25Kg sack of grain.
For my set up, that is the way it works, the "Feints Receiver" sitting in a cupboard with its contents until the next sack of grain is opened.

I have gone slightly off topic there, but hope it helps.

Robert.

[Toper]

Thanks.

As it seems so difficult at times to acquire a good peated ,malt, though those who stock it from time to time do appear to readily sell out, I just wanted to get maximum results from that which I was able to obtain.

So far, I have stuck with a 6kg bill to 23 litres, stirring very often.

As for the distilling:

I haven't ventured to strip down to 5% but do go down to at least 10%. However, as there is so much flavour/phenols left in the pot after a strip, I might just try going to 5%

If I am doing a series of mashes across multiple bags then I continually amass feints throughout, to be later diluted for spirit run.

[RumJohn]

@ Toper:

I haven't ventured to strip down to 5% but do go down to at least 10%. However, as there is so much flavour/phenols left in the pot after a strip, I might just try going to 5%

The purpose of a strip run is to remove the alcohol from the wash and leave unwanted solids, etc. If you take it down to 10% ABV, at that point in the run,90% of what you are pulling off is what you started with. All unwanted material. If you take it to 5% - you might as well not have stripped it.

[Phantom]

Hum ? my understanding that you either keep the grain bill down, or use commercial kit for stirring/aerating and enzymes to convert the excess starch of higher grain bill mashes.

Then things like peating are done in the still.

Strips are done to the lowest feasible level, so as not to have much, if any, alcohol left in once it's ready to flush......

[Toper]

“ If you take it down to 10% ABV, at that point in the run,90% of what you are pulling off is what you started with. All unwanted material. If you take it to 5% - you might as well not have stripped it.”

Thank you RumJohn.

Granted we each, find our own way and and decide on what works for each of us, but I do not feel that the above is actually the 'fact' that its emphatic closing line might suggest.

I readily accept your comments about what is being brought over as one reaches 10% but, for me, the questionable part of the statement is, “All unwanted material”.

The stripping run removes most of the water from the wash, also leaving behind unwanted solids, even down to 5%., it also brings over elements of the flavours.

For me, the very marked flavours which are left behind are very much wanted. Whilst the there is always the cost of a prolonged strip run to consider, any reduction in the final %abv of the strip is small compared to the possible gain in maximising flavour.

So all that happens is that one has a very slightly reduced % abv of the strip, with, hopefully, added elements of flavour

[Easydrinker]

I guess RJ is referring to Rum here, something that he knows well.

When I make Malt whisky I strip to 5 or 10%.
This reduces a 44 litre wash of 7-8% to around 15 litres @ 25%.
Mixing this with my many times recycled feints, 5 litres at a constant 40% ABV,gives a standard Scotch whisky industry charge of 27-28% for a spirit run.
The cuts,the airing and the Oaking and aging from this do the rest.
It is a lengthy process,but ensures that the flavours make it from Malted Barley to Whisky.

I have tried short cuts,they don't work.

Robert.

Edit;
It has just occurred to me to ask if we are all singing from the same hymn sheet here? when I say strip to 10%, I mean what is coming off is @ 10% ABV.
I don't mean strip until only 10% of the wash is left in the boiler.
That would be bonkers as almost half of the distillate would be pure water, not counting the H2O in with the stuff that you wanted.
Just thought that I would ask, friends have fallen out over sillier mistakes.

[Toper]

Yes. The same sheet.

Whilst it seems to go against the grain (excuse the pun)for many, I feel that any method which might enhance flavour is well worth a try.

Interestingly, to date, my ongoing feints are very similar to your own. Between 10% and 5%,the slight increase in volume and reduction of %abv of the strip seems to very much even out in the feints