YEAST.

[Toper]

By and large, to one degree or another, without too many, many others, we appear, within our group to have a number of 'enquiring minds', with an openness to suggestions that all such enquiry entails.

However, for myself personally, I am left with an ongoing impression that, with regard to the subject of 'yeast', little or no attention is being paid to the many decades of selective breeding of the most suitable yeasts for any given any optimal conditions.

Here, I have to admit to 'declared interest'. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in spending time and money on producing a neutral base, to flavour with synthetic products. I've tried a number, both by brand and flavour, and found them all equally loathsome. This may well be my failing. I have no wish to correct it though!

As I understand things, yeast is a part of the final flavour of any fermented product, (excepting neutrals) be it eventually distilled or not. So, over the years, might it not be that those who earn their livings (fortunes) from such selections of suitable yeasts might possibly have something going?

Bakers want maximum gasses from the yeast they use, to best prove their breads. Wine makers want a yeast to live within the the alcohol levels they work with, producing the best overall flavour. Whisky producers appear to require a yeast which can withstand about 8/10% to maximise both both flavour and strength of wash.

In every possible situation one might consider, given the years and years of research that have gone into the selective breeding of suitable yeasts, is it really feasible that the best distillers yeast is a bakers yeast?

[Icefever]

I must admit I've had the same thought T...when brewing beer you do choose the correct yeast for your brew..I've read of some stillers using other than bakers.

Maybe it's because the old moonshiners used bakers...as that would be the only one there was at that time...and the old traditions still stick today.

Have you tried any other yeasts?? if so what was the outcome?.

[chill]

I've tried a few different yeasts, EC-1118, bread yeast, specific DADY distiller's yeast, and fruit schnapps, rum and whiskey specific ones from here http://www.home-distilling.com/store/pc ... st-c63.htm

I can't say that I can identify specific flavours from the yeast in the result, but I don't have a very refined palate as my wine drinking friends can attest. I do think the specific purpose yeasts produce a better result. The professional distillers use specific yeast strains. I don't think they would do that if there was no benefit.

[Phantom]

Meh! some wine yeasts will do an excellent job on grapes not usually associated with the regional isolate.

Can't say for beers, don't make them.

Meads ? only know some of the wine yeast properties do indeed cause a flavour difference - plus while some yeasts are termed as "mead yeast", I don't know what the justification is for that (given that when it was consumed regularly, we knew the square root of sod all about yeasts).

I'd guess that most of the yeast variations that might be found in just a fermented beverage, would be lost by the further processing (distillation). Not forgetting that the difference in storage/aging caused by barrel making material and construction treatments.......

[Mash]

Yes. Absolutely.

One of the things which most surprised me at college was the advances in yeast, temperature profiles and the latest thinking about nutrient programs and availability (YAN) .

All that, and the scientific community still don't fully understand everything that is going on in a fermentation.

Some members know I go to great lengths (& cost) to source specific yeast strains because they do make a difference.

[Phantom]

-----snip-----

Some members know I go to great lengths (& cost) to source specific yeast strains because they do make a difference.

Ah, well yes, some of us do that

I like D21(Lalvin) or K1-V1116 for traditional, red/black fruit do nicely with BDX and for white/green fruit 71B-1122 is excellent.

Got a few other weird ones in the fridge ATM as well.

My last yeast packs came from a place in California, while my supplies of Fermaidk, FermaidO and Goferm came from Portugal via the Netherlands.......

[Easydrinker]

Now there you go Phantom, ruining the magnificent post that I had forming about this malarky (word of the month), because you do actually seem to be a stalwart user of different yeasts.
I will still claim from the little hill that I stand on, that for distilling purposes, that you could use anything, including a pair of fetid Dingo's kidneys or any wild yeasties that habitate your home.
Cos' us bad boy distillers are not looking for fanciful flavours from our yeasty friends, we is gonna boil their asses off at least a couple of times.
And commercial Malt whisky distillers hold their yeast in such low regard that they favour it less than 1 point in a hundred as a contributer to finished product.

Robert.

[Phantom]

Thing is Robert, I make a variety of different beverages.

Wines and meads do need decent yeast, so as to benefit from the various flavour profiles that can be produced. Plus I learned quite quickly that many are happy with a "that'll do" approach to home booze making. I'd guess they're too busy patting themselves on the back for just managing to make something, rather than thinking about the materials to make good booze.........

I mean, for my neutral, I'm happy with my process and materials. The efforts some go to hereabouts are laudable, but I don't have the time to try some of the methods/ideas suggested.......

[Mash]

"fetid Dingo's kidneys" - love it

Not disagreeing. It begs the question why carbon filter if there is nothing there to remove?

[Toper]

Back in the days when I made and drank beer, I feel that I have noticed significant flavour differences with different yeasts, although possibly not as much as with different hops. This being said, given the comparatively miniscule quantities that home brewers deal in, the slightest variations in types of malt, weights, water measure, yeasts, temperature etc., can also be telling factors, so far as consistency of flavour goes.

In my wine making, which nowadays is limited to the local blackberry harvest, I use a Young's Burgundy Wine yeast which, over the years I feel adds to the finish of the wine. Again, this might simply be a matter of personal taste, or even self delusion, but for me, trying to taste as objectively as one can (an oxymoron? ) all other things being equal, it works.

When I first started to experiment with an Air Still, I used a sugar wash and a turbo yeast. The results were a powerful but undrinkable distillation reeking of whatever nutrients had been included in the turbo yeast. Following advices on best usage of the Air Still, this residual flavour was reduced but, for me, still an undrinkable product. I didn't put this down to any yeast 'stress' as the yeast itself is specifically bred for high alcohol tolerance, but more to whatever type and balance of chemicals/nutrients that had been included.

I moved on to a 35 litre Copper Pot Still, and washes using D.M.E and then L.M.E before going on to all grain. Here, initially I stuck to the turbo yeast but found that even through the marked flavours of a malt wash, the residual flavour and odour of the yeast nutrients was still detectable. Having since moved on to a single strain whisky yeast, this has been eradicated whilst the yeast itself quite comfortably ferments out at 10 %. (I am reliably informed that it can also easily go to 14%.) Although the single strain whisky yeast is relatively more expensive than a baking yeast, I feel the higher tolerance makes it more economical in terms of volume and value the of finished product.

If, as I understand, many of the commercial distillers recycle their yeast, given the extremely rapid reproductive cycle of the yeast and its survival, they have in effect selectively produced their own specific whisky yeast, best suited to their own production conditions, regardless of its initial source.

I accept the fact that in distillation a wash has been boiled twice. However, in the case of a pot still, it is not only known but also essential for flavours to survive and pass through to the final distillation. It is also known that unwanted flavours, arising from conditions in fermentation, can also pass through the two boils.

It my be a little Jesuitical (Angels on a pin head etc.), trying to argue just how much of any final flavour is contributed by yeast All in all, it just struck me as strange that with all the constant research and development carried on by Yeast Manufacturers, probably at much expense, for all fermentation purposes, that many home distillers seemed to consider a bakers yeast as the most suitable for their purposes.

However, if it works, it doesn't need mending as the saying goes, or, some such thing. I have no intent to knock either bakers yeast or, those who use it. I raise the subject more as a matter of personal interest on the wide variety of yeast available to us.


Fetid Dingo's kidneys will remain high on my 'To Try List'!

[hampk]

Fetid dingo kidneys are normally used in theological arguments rather than as a yeast substitute, but each to their own..

cf Douglas Adams : Most leading theologians claim that this argument isn't worth a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid from making a fortune with his book Well That About Wraps It Up For God

I suspect many of you will remember the Hitchhiker's Guide with the same affection I do

Cheers Hampk

[Easydrinker]

Yes hampk, and that is where the term sprang from, I cannot claim authorship, plagarism from THHGTTG.

@Phantom and anyone else that does the same, I am not trying to say that one yeast suits all beers,wines,meads or ales.
Here I would expect a marked difference, and when you look at the companies that now exist to hold a specific yeast in perpetual store for commercial brewers,then it would seem that they do too.

I was speaking of the "brew it and throw it through the still a couple of times pirates", us!
The best we can hope for is no shit and some flavour profile from the base brew.

I have written on here before, that 150 years ago, most Scotch whisky was transported South to be rectified to GIN.
It must have been a quite flavourless spirit don't you think?

Robert.

[Benoit]

I have been considering my options quite a bit lately when it comes to yeast, tasting through some batches the other day I noticed a lot of similarities in the different washes even if the final product tastes quite different. Some of it is quite expensive though I think that's what puts me off the most, a White Labs whiskey yeast on geterbrewed was over £6. Am I right in thinking that to reuse a yeast cake I just pour a new wort (at the right temp, naturally) on top of the goop at the bottom of the bucket?

[Phantom]

I have been considering my options quite a bit lately when it comes to yeast, tasting through some batches the other day I noticed a lot of similarities in the different washes even if the final product tastes quite different. Some of it is quite expensive though I think that's what puts me off the most, a White Labs whiskey yeast on geterbrewed was over £6. Am I right in thinking that to reuse a yeast cake I just pour a new wort (at the right temp, naturally) on top of the goop at the bottom of the bucket?

Price is one of the reasons that I don't buy liquid yeast.

I tried 2 or 3 different wyeast ones a few years back. The results didn't warrant the cost - well with wines and meads anyway.

Using the harder to source dried wine yeasts has, so far, been more successful (again, that's just IMO).

Being 5 or more times expensive than dry yeast means it's not worth the hassle.

If you did want to re-use the yeast, look up "yeast washing". I've read that while re-use is feasible, don't look to more than 3 generations as it becomes mutated after that point.....

[Myles]

Again i could be wrong here but I thought the folks that maintain a special local yeast have a mother culture that is kept pure.

Each fermentation they start with a fresh sample from that mother culture. Sorry I should have mentioned that I am talking about BEER.

For repeatable batches with the same yeast.

Talking to someone that used to do multi generational UJSM, he would wash the yeast every 10 generations and could get to 30.

If I found a good yeast that really worked for me, I might try to maintain a clean mother. Have never bothered yet though.