Holy Changed Variables, Batman!

[Cherry Yidaki]

Oh, I can see I need to come in here and read every page, too. So, so much to read - and it's good reading, too!

I has a question, to put before the fine minds that frequent these noble halls academia. I'd like to know what I just did "right-est," so to speak.

So, I've made 4 batches of wash so far - all of them still fermenting moderately well: 2 5-gallon sugar washes and 2 1-gallon sugar-and-breakfast cereal. My starting ph readings have varied a little, but have basically been in the 4.5-6.5 range - citric acid and baking soda as per needed to get inside those guidelines. My temperature is a constant 73F (except for one really slow batch that got a brew belt flung on it). They all have been started with Red Star Premier Champagne yeast and a couple of teaspoons of nutrient. My water is pretty hard, so haven't added any calcium.

All these fermentations are, now, limping along at about 1 bubble/3-6 seconds. Not the furious fermentation I seem to remember old winemaking days, but definitely progress is being made. Still, it's been 3 weeks now that the first 2 have been working, so that makes me edgy.

Anyway, today I started a couple more 1-gallon jugs of wash going. The differences here are that:

1 - I stopped a water distillation run halfway through, then used that concentrated, calcium-rich water for half my volume. Dechlorinated tap water (my usual) for the rest.

2 - No nutrient. 2 cups yellow cornmeal instead.

3 - Red Star Premier Cuvee yeast (left over from winemaking, as is the champagne yeast.)

I didn't take hydrometer readings this last time(s) because I figured I was using a constant (2 pds sugar/1 gal water) and would just take what I get. The spirit hydrometer will tell the tale later. (I have found a "tighter" cylinder to test in, btw. Thanks for the suggestions). Temp, pitching style, everything else is the same as my previous batches.

3 hours after my yeast pitch I went back to see if there might be any activity yet and was pleasantly astounded to find that both cornmeal jugs were just pounding away at 1 bubble/1-2 seconds. This is way better than any of the others; and those earlier washes took days to get up to the desultory speeds they've topped out at.

So, I'd like to know what the more experienced people here think might have been the trick that made this dramatic change. Is it the extra calcium? The cornmeal? The different species of yeast? The fact that I solemnly intoned, "By the NAMES of Aidenmac and Mozr I call ye forth!" whilst shaking it all up for the 7th time?

A combo of...? Something completely different?

Thanks in advance for any illumination.

And speaking of illumination, I can't be more impressed or grateful for the information I am finding reading through this site. Thanks again to all contributors.

[Easydrinker]

This reads as if you used one yeast for the older washes,and another left over yeast for the new vigorous ones.
That would suggest the first yeast was not too viable.
The cornmeal may well have all the nutrients yeast need,I haven't heard of that one though.
I don't know if any extra calcium in the water would have an effect.
My understanding is that hard water contains all the trace minerals yeast need.
Does your de-chlorification also remove minerals?
Personally,unless the chlorine smell was really bad,I wouldn't bother.
Fortunately my supply is tolerable.
Robert.

[chill]

Fermenting is more like gardening than cooking. There are a lot of variables and your local environment (temperature, air) changes all the time. The first ones are likely one of:
- finished and just releasing the CO2 in the liquid. Degass then and see if they start bubbling again. If they do then:
- could be stalled due to low pH. Check it. Add some baking soda and see if that restarts them
- could be stalled due to excess alcohol. You could dilute them or just run as is
- could have an infection that is now consuming the alcohol and producing gas

If you are going to add baking soda and citric acid, I will suggest mixing them into a pH buffer first http://forum.moderndistiller.com/viewto ... f=7&t=1109

I thought that AM had a buffer thread here, but I can't find it.


Chuck

[Cherry Yidaki]

Thanks for the responses!

Easydrinker - Yes, I used old Champagne yeast on the first 4 washes, just tried some Cuvee of the same vintage, so to speak, on these new ones. Was wondering, I guess, if Champagne yeast is naturally less robust or energetic than Cuvee? Or, perhaps, it ages less gracefully?

My dechlorination is basically putting tap water into a fermenting bucket and letting it air for a day or so. I like to distill my drinking water, now that I have a handy means to do so, so have been airing the tap water for that purpose. What I put in my fermenters is regular tap water that has aired a bit to let the chlorine dissipate.

chill - That is a very valuable link, and thank you for it. I had read something about buffering elsewhere, but it hadn't "stuck" with me. I am going to have to investigate this concept more thoroughly.

On the other points - I think those early washes are still actively fermenting, not degassing, but I will take some readings and perhaps separate a sample to degas and watch so I can be sure.

- Low ph stall - Possible... I will check and adjust if so. I was under the impression that the decreasing ph is/was just a natural part of the fermentation process and shouldn't be fiddled with once things got started. I stand corrected and will see what's up.

- Excess alcohol. Well, I guess a hydrometer reading will tell me that also. I have grandkids to babysit this afternoon, but after that I am going to start tinkering with glassware.

- infection, yikes. Hope not. They smell of yeast and alcohol, still, so I'm thinking they're ok. Hoping hard, actually.

Thank you so much for the thoughts and advice!

[Cherry Yidaki]

Just found and read Aidenmac's "Back to Basics" thread. That's a good one for the ph buffer business. http://www.stillsmart.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2509&p=15144&hilit=ph+buffer#p15144

[chill]

The ph drop is natural but with sugar based washes there is little to counter it and it can drop low enough to inhibit fermentation.

[Cherry Yidaki]

Went through everything this morning and here's what my notes read at the end.

Wash#1: 5-gal sugar
12/28/2013 - 1 bubble/8 sec. Appears a translucent/white. Tastes sweet/sour/winey/watery. Sweeter than Wash#2.

74.8F (no brewbelt), 5.35 ph, 1.018 SG. (original SG 1.052)

Degassed via bubbling. Washed everything down with oxyclean.

2 hours later activity: 1 bubble/8 sec.


Wash#2: 5-gal sugar
12/28/2013 - 1 bubble/3 sec. Tastes sweet/sour/winey. Looks like yellowish skim milk.

82F (has brewbelt), 4.94 ph, 1.006 SG. (original SG: 1.058)

Degassed via bubbling. Washed everything down with oxyclean.

2 hours later: 1 bubble/3 sec

So, I guess my conclusion is that the Champagne yeast is weak, but still viable - and that I'm close to being ready to rack off, mix with baking soda and rest a day or 2, then start stripping.

[chill]

Are they out of nutrients? ph is OK, but still lots of sugar left.

Chuck

[Cherry Yidaki]

My notes say I added a tsp of yeast nutrient to both washes at the beginning. I'm not opposed to adding more now and seeing if it helps.

[Almanac]

Just reading back through your posts I can't find any reference about preparing the yeast for pitching. This prompts a couple of Q's in my mind;
1 Did you make a yeast starter or just pitch the dry yeast?
2 Did you aerate the wash before pitching the yeast? Yeast needs oxygen to grow and reproduce before it can do the job we want it to do.

Plus, in a sugar wash you'd need to add a bit more than a few teaspoons of nutrient to sustain a Champagne yeast, that's part of the reason the ones with the cornmeal seemed to work better.

My Lentil wash came about as a result of problems I was having with issues like crashing pH and unfinished ferments, etc. The lentils provide all the nutrients required and the pH looks after itself. However, if you have a genuine problem with pH you need to fix it at the start of the wash.

I know from bitter experience that chasing after a crashing pH, when a wash has stalled, is never going to produce a satisfactory result and throwing an acid or a base into the wash will only provide a temporary solution. Better to avoid the problem in the first place

I'd be very interested in your answers to the 2 Q's above

AM

[John51]

Easiest way is to do a bulk buy of Vodka Star and stop worrying about ferments until you've got the distilling down. Then you can get back to diy ferments.

Look at it this way, say someone that has never been in a kitchen before. They have a choice between 1) a prepack bread mix or 2) a recipe book and a load of different flours and other ingredients.

Best potential loaf is obviously 2) but the best loaf a newbie baker can actually make that day is 1)

[Cherry Yidaki]

Hi, aidenmac!

From my notes (I can't remember that far back) I reveal all - including my embarrassing brain error of thinking I need acid to lower my ph:

Wash#1 5-gal sugar wash Date: 12/4/2013

5 gal. Water

6.5 pd sugar

1 tsp acid blend

1 tsp yeast nutrient


Starting SG: 1.052 (Notes: Not sure about ph readers/ings)
Starting temp: 83.8F
Starter: 10 cups wash, 1 packet Redstar Pasteur Champagne yeast

12/4/13 – Add half the starter to better bottle. 75F After 2 hours, slow bubbling' At 6 hours added .5 tsp nutrient and another package of yeast. Shook to aerate. Shows lots of bubbles and is now opaque.

12/5/13 – Still desultory fermentation. Stirred. 77 F, 1.058 SG, ph 6 (strip). Added 1 tsp baking powder. 5 hours after baking soda added, visible active micro-bubble rushing at the top.

12/6/13 – stirred, got lots of bubbles. Almost puked. 78F, 10.056 SG, 7.2 ph. Appears to be gaining strength.

12/7/13 – Stupid me. I should be adding acid to drop the ph. Stirred, got good bubble rush. Not as much as yesterday, though. 74F, 7.24 ph, 1.058 SG Added 1 tsp baking soda, 2 tsp acid blend.

12/8/13 – Very slow activity this morning. Stirred. Got a decent bubble rush. Noticeably more active after a few hours.

12/9/13 – Reasonable activity. Stirred, good bubbles. 75.7 F, 1.052 SG, 5.85 ph

12/10/13 – Reasonable activity. Noticed a viscous, glycerine-like, stringy, “slime” when taking readings. Tasted sweet and yeasty. 74.6F, 1.052 SG, 5.82 ph. Reading suggests it might be infected with bacteria, but as long as it is fermenting well, I will let it keep perking. Also read that you don't need to, or should, stir a sugar wash after the initial stir. So, I'll stop stirring.

12/11/13 – active. Heater keeps popping reset. Put heater belt around both better bottles.

12/12/13 – Steady activity. 81F

12/13/13 – Same

12/18/2013 – Steady activity. Took Brew Belt off to use exclusively on Wash #2 last night.

12/19/2013 – Steady activity. Appears to be starting to clear, maybe.

12/23/2013 – Continues with a steady fermentation. Has cleared to the appearance of strong lemonade.

12/24/2013 - strengthening activity.

12/28/2013 - 1 bubble/8 sec. Appears a translucent white. Tastes sweet/sour/winey/watery. Less slime than wash #2, but sweeter. 74.8F (no brewbelt), 5.35 ph, 1.018 SG. Degassed via bubbling, 1 hour later activity 1 bubble/8 sec. Washed everything down with oxyclean.

12/29/2013 - Added 2 tsp nutrient. Put in jar with 150 ml warm water and shook well, then poured into bottle. Instant, extravagant foaming. Some puke-over.

Wash#2 – 5-gal sugar wash Date: 12/5/2013 1530 hrs

5 gal. Water
6.5 pd sugar
1 tsp acid blend
2 tsp yeast nutrient
1 tsp baking soda


Starting SG 1.058 Notes:
Starting temp: 97 F
Starting ph: 6 (strip)

Starter: 10 cups wash, 1 packet Redstar Pasteur Champagne yeast. 85F After 2 hours, slow bubbling' At 6 hours added .5 tsp nutrient and another package of yeast. Shook to aerate. Shows lots of bubbles and is now opaque.

12/5/13 – Add half the starter to better bottle. After a few hours there does seem to be activity. After 5 hours, definite activity.

12/6/13 – Stirred. Not many bubbles rising. 79.8F, 1.066 SG, 7.6 ph. Added 1 tsp acid blend. Immediate bubble release with that.

12/7/13 – Stirred. Better bubble release than yesterday. Stupid me, I should have been using acid to lower ph. 74.4F, 6.46 ph, 1.062 SG. Added 2 tsp baking soda, 3 tsp. acid blend.

12/8/13 – Stirred. Got an ok bubble rush. Slow, steady fermentation.

12/9/13 – Ok activity. Stirred, ok bubble rush. 75 F, 1.062, 6.45 ph – added 1 tsp baking soda.

12/10/13 – Stirred. Medium good activity. 73.9F, 1.062 SG, 6.0 ph. Noticed a viscous, glycerine-like, stringy, “slime” when taking readings. Tasted sweet and yeasty. Reading suggests it might be infected with bacteria, but as long as it is fermenting well, I will let it keep perking. Also read that you don't need to, or should, stir a sugar wash after the initial stir. So, I'll stop stirring.

12/11/13 – active. Heater keeps popping reset. Put heater belt around both better bottles.

12/12/13 – Steady activity. 81F

12/13/13 – Same – less than Wash #1. Added 1 tsp baking soda

12/18/13 – Activity noticeably decreased. Stirred and got little foam-up. Decided that I needed to “bomb” it. Crushed up a bunch of Rice Chex (maybe 1 pint) because I think some “bulk” for the yeast to chew on may be missing. Also, two packs champagne yeast (didn't want to put in a competing yeast) and 1 tsp citric acid.

When I added it, I tried to stir it down. The vigorous stirring whipped loose a bubble storm that started foam and slime pouring from the bottleneck. It looked like it wasn't going to stop anytime soon, so added run conditioner (surfactant) which calmed it down quickly. Cleaned up the mess. Put the brew belt around this bottle alone. Noted that the runoff smelled a little like alcohol for the first time. Hope it keeps going well. Don't think I'll do a pure sugar run in future. I think it needs something in it.

12/18/2013 – Good activity. Best of anything so far. 1 bubble/3 sec through airlock. Foamy cereal mat/cap floating on top. Stirred it around a little.

12/19/2013 – Pounding away. Most of the cereal cap has dropped.

12/23/2013 – Fermenting strongly. Just a few scraps of cap left on top. Perhaps starting to clear a little.

12/24/2013 - Steady fermentation.

12/28/2013 - 1 bubble/3 sec. Tastes sweet/sour/winey/slimy. Looks like yellowish skim milk. 82F, 4.94 ph, 1.006 SG. Degassed via bubbling. Activity unchanged. Washed everything down with oxyclean.

12/29/2013 - Added 3 tsp nutrient. Put in jar with 150 ml warm water and shook well, then poured into bottle.

At this time - which is about 7 hours after adding the last nutrient to both bottles, I would say the activity seems basically the same as it has been: 1 bubble/7-8 sec for Wash#1, 1 bubble/3-4 sec for Wash #2.

Incidentally, the cornmeal jugs have slowed their pace a little, but are still doing good at 1 bubble/2-3 sec (for the one. I don't have a cork the right size for the other, so there's a holed balloon covering it).

I am intending, once I have fermenters freed up again, to start a couple red lentil wash, using your recommended ph buffering technique, since I've now found and read it. I'll do one with champagne yeast, the other cuvee, to see what the difference is there. Once I run out of my old yeasts I think I'm going to try out bread and brewer's yeasts.

Thanks for your insights and help - and patience with newbie confusion, kerfuffle, consternation.

[Cherry Yidaki]

John 51 - I am sure your logic is unassailable, but I have a hard time convincing myself to spend money on something I already have or can readily make. I still have a dozen packets of Champagne and Cuvee yeast... But, if it's going to take weeks and weeks to get them to ferment and clear, I suppose that just makes your point stronger.... heh

I'll have to noodle on it.

[RumJohn]

Attn: Cherry: Your initial SG could go a little higher. Your sugar to water ratio has room to change.

You keep stirring the wash. Depending on how vigorous your stirring is you might be adding oxygen to the wash which you dont want at this stage. Leave it alone.

Yeast does have a shelf life and it is cheap. Use good fresh yeast.

[John51]

John 51 - I am sure your logic is unassailable, but I have a hard time convincing myself to spend money on something I already have or can readily make. I still have a dozen packets of Champagne and Cuvee yeast... But, if it's going to take weeks and weeks to get them to ferment and clear, I suppose that just makes your point stronger.... heh

I'll have to noodle on it.

In bulk VS is ~£2.75 each delivered. At 7 litres (or more) of 40%abv from each wash, that's ~39 pence per litre. Plus you've still got your original stock to diy once you have loads and loads of product in stock.

imo diy is false economy if you are buying in product while getting the diy down.