Still Automation

[TheDoktor]

Hi All,

First, I'd like to say as a really green n00b to all of this, what a fantastic forum you have here!
All of my questions were answered after a few hours trawling through all your forums and posts - just fantastic! (Unless I have really misunderstood how these things work...!)

I'm a gadget kind of a guy and like to make stuff work together and I have just got an airstill to try this out at the very beginning... What put my off going for a T500 was the need to connect it to a water supply and all the water just goes down the drain!

Why can't you just cool the water and recirculate it? Car's have been doing that for ever! and computers... So, why not stills - you can control the pump to provide the water temperature you need at the condenser and if the radiator is well spec'ed it should remove the heat from the output water of the condenser and return it to ambient temperature to be used again...

Further, if you know the temperature of the vapour at the top of the still, that should tell you what part of the process you are at - the lower the temperature the earlier in the process for the Fores, then the Heads, Hearts and Tails... This creates a profile that can produce recipes that can be automated for different spirit runs - vodka, brandy or Rum etc...

Obviously, this would need lots of trial and error, but the output of the condenser can be switched into different containers for the run - this is a set and forget option. It just does it based on the chemical composition and thus the temperature of the vapour/distillate at the top of the boiler, just before the condenser.

So, to ask a question - has this been done? is any one interested?
This would allow the still to be placed in a shed without a water supply and run 24/7...
Kick it off before work and it's done when you get back... I thought that would be great!

It could also be internet enabled to provide all the data via a webpage from the controller and a master kill switch if it goes wrong... Safety is the most important thing, so leaving it would be at the owners risk...!

Any thoughts or comments. Please make them constructive, I'm really new to this, but it appeared to be a problem and I like finding solutions...

[YHB]

Are you concerned about wasting money or water?

Choice of systems is based on your resources including space, but generally if you heat water then it will cost you to cool it down and you will waste other precious resources in the process.

The example you quote will require electricity to circulate the water and to drive the fan. Will the savings you make on the water be more than the cost of the electricity, I doubt it.

If you continue your research you will find many examples of recirculating water systems. Large reservoirs of cold water, swamp coolers, forced air radiators etc. etc.

The T500 is a device designed to produce neutral spirit and altering the cooling will not make it any better for producing brandy or rum.

The T500 is a Cooling Management (CM)still altering the amount of cooling allows more or less vapour to pass the reflux coil, thus altering the reflux ratio, it is not a set and forget option.

I doubt there is enough capacity in the T500 boiler to run 24/7 and last while you are at work. I think the only thing you would come home to, is a hole in the ground where your shed used to be.

I am glad that you think "Safety is the most important thing, so leaving it would be at the owners risk...!" your post is a bit of contradiction.

You are proud to state that "All of my questions were answered after a few hours trawling through all your forums and posts" It is obvious that there are many more questions that you do not realise you have.

Take a deep breath, keep on reading and learn the manual process before you consider automating anything.

[packapoo]

Well reasoned post YHB. Kudos!

[chill]

In reference to some of your other questions, yes, automated and computer controlled still operation is well understood and implemented. As two points of reference:
http://www.amphora-society.com/Designin ... u_p_3.html
http://www.istill.eu

Chuck

[TheDoktor]

Hi YHB,

Thanks for your comments... There are a few things that I didn't mention...
I'm actually an electronic and computer engineer and have in the past worked in process engineering on an industrial scale... Currently, I'm studying for a PhD in informatics, and it's not about cost, it's about the challenge and the reward of completing it. If it's of benefit to others then that's great, if you don't want anything like that, okay that's fine, if you do, i'd like to know what are the important parts of the process and the use cases.

When I said set and forget, I didn't mean that the system would stay static - it constantly changes the setup to optimise the process - changing the parameters of the condenser water flow and/or boiler temperature etc to maintain optimal performance - whatever that is...
Engineering something to manage the process of heating the wash to condense vapour is not beyond the realm of what's possible. I'm not looking to make a still, as any system I made to control it would not be of any use to anyone else!

Any system that controls this process should be safe... I can monitor the power into the heater and control it's output temperature to achieve the optimal heating curve, the temperature of the various critical point of the still can be monitored simultaneously, any issues with that can be flagged or compensated for automatically. The water temperature and flow can be managed and if found to be less than ideal or has failed, the power can be cut - automatically.
The inlet and outlet condenser water temperatures can be monitored to provide the cooling required and can drive the pump and cooling fan/radiator and feed into managing the boiler heating curve.

If people are really worried, additional sensors to monitor atmospheric ethanol vapour can be included as part of the system, it's easy enough and they are cheap!

This is all in addition to the manual operation of the still - Automation means it is repeatable and can be optimised. My settings with the same still can be your settings and achieve the same results if it's based on the same design.

That could all be managed from your kitchen with an iPad if your still was in the shed!
It's possible to do all that for a few hundred dollars in volume... Be biggest part would be to understand what are the critical parts of the process are and what the optimal temperatures would be for the different distillate phases at the condenser.

Anyway, it's all good fun - if it works great, if not I'm enjoying the challenge!
I'd really like get help with the "iStill"... Any other feedback Anyone?

[TheDoktor]

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for the information.
That's a great still - I didn't know that the istill was a thing...!

It's a bit bigger than I had imagined regular people would want/need... My ambition was to just control the T500 in a similar way using Micro-controllers and some electronics. No need for PLC's!

The fun bit is designing the hardware and getting the software to work... and obviously testing the product! I think the book will be really useful in getting me started.

Thanks for your comments.

[hampk]

I too have a background in industrial automation, albeit a long time ago. I only run an Airstill, and you can 'automate' that to a degree - a couple of timers and a reliable recipe and you can have it turn on and off, and run for (approximately) the right time per the Airstill Best Practice guide.

Only for stripping runs though - every spirit run I'd do manually - even using the same recipe, same volumes - as I want to stay in control. Every batch is different, and I enjoy the process as much as the result. It's a hobby, and the fun is in the making.

The concept, from a controls point of view, is interesting. But this is a hobby, right?

I was reminded of a friend who spent a fortune on his train set. Then he spent another fortune automating it. He didn't use it much when he was done - the fun had gone out of it.

The other thought that occurred was bread. You can make some fantastic bread if you do it by hand. Automate the process - which they did a long time ago - and you get boring stuff that's all the same. Perfect if you want to churn out tons of loaves - but I suspect most of us aren't after that result to our potterings..

Each to their own, but this isn't an idea I'm going to be adopting..

Cheers

Hampk

[Sunshine]

We are currently working on an electrical parrot.

So far so good.

We work with many professional distillers and I don't know any good professional distiller who really uses only automation for the distilling process. They all taste and smell and one even told me, he had a very expensive automation kit on his still but does not use it any more.

It seem so be: Flavours and products have so many variables that you just can't follow just protocol.

[Mash]

Hampk. Good post end to end.
I suppose there is sweet spot. Enough automation to take away the drudgery but not enough to remove the fun/interest.

I too automated my airstill.... with a timer. And for that same reason probably won't get a T500.

[TheDoktor]

Thanks for all your feedback...

Hampk, I think your right. This is a hobby, and for me it just a new way of combining two of mine my love of tinkering with electronics and control systems and a new one - getting the still to operate...

I guess, it's also about the personal expertise and the learning that people do this, the challenge and variation... - you have to be able to control the process and know what's going on...

As a n00b, I saw lots of cool kit I can stick together and do stuff, great for me, and I'll probably still do it just for the crack, but for others it's taking away the fun and enjoyment. People cook not just to eat, but for the enjoyment and creativity of cooking.

I guess what I'm saying all you guys on here are master chefs and enjoy the cooking as much as the eating... I think I'm looking for the people who eat takeaway or happy meals!

The problem is that the happy meal munchers won't have the detailed knowledge you guys have, and possibly won't be on this forum anyway!

Just for your information, Google this sensor - "E85 Flex Fuel Sensor"
It would be great to monitor in real time when you got down to 20% ethanol in your runs...
Cars are doing this already and have been for years. I don't know about it being food safe!
Some car parts have cadmium plating, so be aware it might be poisonous!
If it was possible to make it food safe or on bigger stills just divert a sample every 20 or 30 seconds or so and then dump, it might work very well... All just thoughts.

Thanks for you comments.

[Easydrinker]

Hi there TheDoktor,
Firstly,let me welcome you,and your possibly controversial ideas to this forum.

I will come back to your engineering background,but let me first tell you about me.

I built and run a 30 litre air still,no water cooling. This winter,I may play with recirc. water.
This still,when I run a regular "neutral" wash is now "semi-automatic",in that I know where the ABV's and cuts are,I no longer test by taste on a neutral.I get up from my chair at regular intervals and change collection vessel,number them,and next day make cuts by hydrometer(often I don't bother,and do it by bottle number).
Flavoured washes are different,but similar,flavoured washes could probably be run the same way.
Now my still is a pot and not a reflux,but is of similar size to a T500.
And so I believe that I may ask a couple of pertinent questions?

My first Q is that on a spirit run collection vessels would need switching,how if automated ? People have been doing stripping runs with air stills plugged into a timer for years.
Secondly,why try and automate a still that has basically done its work in 4 hours? To run 24/7 It would need emptying and refilling,although I suspect what you meant here was that it could run anytime,unattended.
The way I see this,it would need a physical change to the condenser,to allow several,switchable exit points.
I do not doubt that a solution could be found,with much effort and some expense.
And that it could work safely.

What must be born in mind is that the T500 and air stills are entry level stills, mostly used by people who are learning a craft,and actually enjoy hands on time and experience.
Some users become so comfortable with their still that,like myself,they can run it semi-automatically,and really would not thank you for a device that could be run remotely.

Can I just say that I have knowledge of process engineers.
This year I installed a domestic heating system for one,His design,I merely joined up the pipes.
3 boilers,3 different fuels,zoned heating,heat-leaks,PLC's and more valves and widgets than I would like to shake a stick at.It seems to work.He can go to work and via his smart phone check the temperature of the bedroom,and adjust it.
Or he could have waited until he got home and twiddled the thermostat on the wall,as most folk do.
I hope the responses here will not kill your enthusiasm,it is always good to get new ideas,even if they only serve to make you re-evaluate the way that you do something.
ATB

Robert.

[TheDoktor]

Hi Robert / Easydrinker,

Thanks for your thoughts and comments...

Well, to answer your first question, if I understand how these things work.
To get the cuts, there is a variation and increase in temperature of the vapour which can be monitored the more volatile products come off first at a lower temperature (fores and heads) and finally the tails at a higher temperature...

The collection jars can be setup and collected not by volume but be temperature of the vapour - this should collect all the same stuff together... Where a transition takes place this can be detected through increase in temp and a new collection started... It easy to have a multi position valve or a few of these stacked to provide outputs in different jars or buckets - as many as is needed... If you want to get really specific you can also monitor the flow rate of the distillate - and if you know the volume of output from the vapour at the top of the boiler (bottom of the condenser) to the final output you can switch when you have detected the temp change in the vapour and output the condenser volume...

I don't want to change the design of the still, just work with the basic design. I would want to use the same condenser and put in a few more temperature sensors and control for the heating element... I'd also like to get to off mains water and maximise condenser effiency by looking at the internal boiler temperatures, vapour temp, condenser temp and distillate temp... That will allow me to monitor the flow rate with known coolant temp for the condenser. As I said before, you can switch the output of the condenser into as many buckets as you want or need...

The key I think is good and accurate temperature monitoring. I should be able to create a dynamic setup to automatically optimise the output distillate for any neutral wash that goes in...

The 24/7 comment was never meant to suggest that it was a continuous process...! You suspected correctly - I just meant it could be run at anytime day or night safely... A process change from batch to continuous it a little more than I had imagined :-)

Just looking for some help and so far the comments have been great!
Not always in my corner, but good feedback all the same.

I guess, nobody wants to know that a machine can do it as well or better than you!
That's not my plan, my plan it's to do it repeatably and with good quality, without me stood over it.
A bonus would be if others found it useful... I thought a T500 would be good as it's a basic still for beginners and if it can be safely automated, it becomes plug and play... Bringing the joys of the art to others that are time poor.

Thanks again for your comments.

[chill]

Herr Doktor, one thing you mentioned was "feed into managing the boiler heating curve". I wanted to confirm that you had understood that the temperature of the boiling wash can't be controlled by controlling the energy input to it. The liquid is a solution of (mainly) water and ethanol and the temperature of the boiling solution is dependant on the ratio of the components and rises over time as more ethanol than water is driven off. The only thing that can be controlled is the rate of steam production. More energy in produces more steam out which at some point will overwhelm your column or cooling capacity. Temperatures taken at the top of the column and further along should be reliable control points.


Chuck

[hampk]

Hi Herrdoktor..

Far be it from me to take anything away from your desire to create an automated still process. I spend a lot of my current life making life easier for people by writing code to automate boring repetitive procedures.

I have had similar thoughts to yours. I can envisage a front panel that allows me to hit a button that drops all the ingredients for a wheat wash into a bin, fire up the aquarium heater and five days later dump it into a still. Another press - 24 hours later (Airstill, remember!) I have 9 litres of low wines.

Trouble is, for me at least, I could also stick a ready meal in the microwave and nuke it for three minutes.

Much the same way as I enjoy cooking three courses from raw by hand, I enjoy brewing a wash and then processing it myself - it's a great way to unwind. Automating everything makes it a bit mass-production - I might as well go and buy a bottle of Talisker, if you see what I mean.. Not that their distillery is automated - I've seen it - it's an experience!

I apologise if my first post seemed harsh - no offence intended - but I've learnt a huge amount from the guys here and getting stuck in myself - I'd have missed all that fun if I could just fire and forget.

Go for it - who knows, you might have hit on something..!!

Cheers

Hampk

[TheDoktor]

Hi Chuck,

Thanks for that...
Yes, I was aware of that. There is a problem if you push too much energy into the boiler, as you suggest you can swamp the condenser.

I'm thinking you should see swamping as a change in ethanol production at the output of the condenser... You would also see that as an increase in condenser temperature which would increase the cooling requirement until the max limit of the condenser was reached...

So, I'm thinking that the controls for the heating power will be slightly less responsive than the cooling of the condenser... Much more mass in the boiler!

Backing off the boiler power once distillate appears at the condenser should give a better chance of controlling production.

Any one have any temperatures or specifics, so I can start to plug some figures in...?

Thanks again for your comments.