First runs with Boka - problems

[Boozoid]

OK folks, so I have done my first two runs with the Boka.

A little bit of background to help diagnose the issues:
2" boka, 120cm panscrub packing. Well insulated column.
Wash: 5kg Sugar wash, Vodka Star Yeast at 22C approx 12%

The first run took my 25L 12% wash and made around 2.3L at mostly around 95%.
I filled 8 300ml jam jars and numbered them. Throwing the first 100ml as fores.
I was taking the product quickly and since this was the first time I had distilled, I was just interested in the rates, smells and tastes.

A few days later I redistilled my product, after watering it down to around 40%, I took off the product off at 96+% into the 300ml numbered jars as before. Heads jar 1 was taken off slowly 6ml/min.. then jars 2-7 around 10ml/min (1.8kw electricity minus heat losses thru boiler)
The temp held very steady at 78.2C for hearts and I shutdown as soon as I noticed a temp rise and tails about 82C (I was watching TV)
To me, the product has a harsh alcohol smell that burns your nose.
I diluted the middle of the hearts (jars 3 - 6) to 42% and added a essencia blue sapphire gin flavour. A waste of time and effort me thinks. It did nothing to mask the issue and It still has a harsh alcohol burn to the nose.

So.. Can anybody guide me to producing a better spirit. Wrong technique ?

I have bought some activated carbon to try. But I was hoping that after a double distillation at that high a % I would not have to bother with charcoal.

suggestions please.

[Blue_Duck]

Hi,Boozoid. there's been a few who have looked at this thread and no replies, only thing i can say is your doing things right, but with a sugar wash your always going to get that harsh burn/smell to your product. at least that's what i've always.experienced .With my sugar wash's V/Star,lentil. stripped and spirit ran, through my t500 with very careful cuts. i always run it through my filter(5ltr s/s pot with a 28ml copper pipe) welded underneath about 1 mtr with a washing machine valve,(little bit of cotton stuffed in) that i can attach my needle valve. fill it with the carbon as you mention then i filtr some may say it's overkill but i set it away on a night and in the morning its ready to refill, I do this for 5 days. It gives me a nice neutral to play with.

B_D

[Anavrin]

I've done a couple of runs on my boka now, I too find the hearts to be a bit harsh but I run them through my Essencia filter, this makes a big difference but doesn't completely remove it, I didn't realise this could be caused by sugar washes, I've been planning on an all grain wash but just not got round to it, I'm going to have to give one a go.

I noticed from your post you stripped your wash with your packing in your column, it would be quicker to remove the packing and run it as a pot still with the tap wide open, instead of 2.3litres at 95% you'll collect about 5.5litres at around 55%, don't make any cuts, just collect the lot and stop when the output % gets to 30%, personally I would strip two washes like this, water them down to 30% and then go for a spirit run with your packing in.

Might also help if you aired your cuts for 24hrs, you will loose some alc to the angels but it should help leave a cleaner neutral behind, this is something I've not properly done yet myself but I've just bought some kilner preserve jars that have a removable middle section in the lid, so you can use a thin cloth or something similar to keep any nasty fly's away!

[Boozoid]

Thanks for the comments chaps,

So the sugar wash .. is most likely the culprit.
Thats a bugger, I was hoping that making a clean lower %, VS, cool ferment I would have a good wash. Thats not good news.

I used the Boka in Reflux mode on the first run so I could get a grip of the controls and observe, in the future I will swap boiler heads to the potstill.
The jars were aired for 48Hrs, zero differance in the smell to be honest. I just placed a cotton cloth over the open jars to stop bug ingress.
Yesterday, I quickly made up a wine bottle carbon filter and ran a little product thru it. There is a noticable differance, but I still would not drink it.
So I guess I need to try a Metre of carbon in a tube, To clarify... B_D do you run your product thru the filter five times to get your nice neutral?

I really want to achieve a commercial comparable drinkable neutral from a sugar wash, If I start doing all grain mash, It would take forever. My mashtun is not big enough to cope with the huge quanity of grain to get 25L upto 12%, so I would have to do it in stages. For the extra money and time it takes I might as well bob down to lidl for a bottle of vodka.
Or are folks just using some animal feed?

[Anavrin]

My mash tun is a 38lt thermopot, I too can't get enough grain in to get 25lt to 12% but I'm gonna try half and half malt and sugar to see how it goes, I'll probably try 6-7kg of marris otter with 6 bags of sugar in my big fermenter, maybe 40lt, I'll have to put the numbers into beer engine to see what mix I need to get 40lt at 12% ish, I'll let you know how I get on, might do it this weekend

[Capt-Cudellez]

The further you get away from the yeast the better in my opinion. I run an SPP filled column that could easily produce azeotrope on a single run.
But I still always strip the wash first and do a spirit run with the alcohol from 2or3 strips watered down to sub 30% ABV for better separation, this puts loads of alcohol in the boiler making the spirit run more productive, and you can afford to make narrower cuts as you are still getting loads of good hearts.

Also if mid hearts you are at 78.2oC the game is over by the time it hits 78.5oC (the actual numbers don't matter, its the change we are looking for, my columns is usually at 77.7 or there abouts.) you can extend this for a jar or 2 more by closing the valve slightly to increase the reflux ratio. You said you noticed it at 82oC Did any of that product make it in to your hearts? That will be tails for sure and could contaminate the lot.

That said more often than not the best way to make better spirits is to be a better brewer.

The other thing to look at is your wash, how did it taste before it went into the boiler. If it tastes hot and cidery before you distill it, its not going to be as neutral as something that tastes like a rubbish white wine that is lacking in flavour.

EDIT: you did a double run, I should have read that more carefully :-) water it down to drinking strength and put it in glass with some air space and try it in a week. A little time can show a big improvement.
Also are you sure the packing is just steel and not coated, or is the flux from your build that could be contaminating the product?

[Almanac]

I looked in here earlier in the week when you posted and decided to stand back and let others pitch in - gets a bit predictable if the same person is answering queries like yours all the time.

I expect some of our more illustrious distillers will pipe up over the weekend but my tuppence worth is based on personal experiences double distilling sugar heads made with VS of Lentil Wash and run in a 50lt Pot Still with Thumper which makes it equal to triple distillation.

Fermentation is a relatively simple process where yeast consumes sugar and produces Ethanol as a bi-product. Unless you add something weird to the wash you will end up with a very poor tasting wine between 10-12% ABV that's perfect for our purposes. There are some nasties in the wash at this stage but at a parts per million count that is so low these do not require consideration at this point.

Distillation is simply a process of separation of the different substances in the wash because they have different vapour points but nothing gets made or manufactured in the process. So, if you end up with something undesirable in your spirit it was created in the wash but should be removed by proper fractioning during reflux and careful cuts while drawing off the fractions or after airing.

If I were using a Reflux column to produce neutral spirit I would always carbon filter it.

Two things occur which may or may not be helpful;
Copper in the vapour path to remove sulphides should make a big difference but you may already hadpve this covered. I did find that relying on a copper column or a copper head and condenser didn't do as good a job as copper mesh amongst the column packing.

Angels Share - the nose burning sensation you describe would suggest that the volatiles are still present in your cuts. Airing should solve this problem but if it's present throughout then your getting smearing across the range and you need to look at your procedures.

In general the harsh chemical smell and taste in a spirit suggests the presence of elements that are normally contained in the Fores and early Heads.

This may all be old hat to you but generally these are the things that relate to you getting that kind of result in your spirits.

hope some of this helps.

AM

[Easydrinker]

Thanks for the comments chaps,

I really want to achieve a commercial comparable drinkable neutral from a sugar wash,.....

Do you really?
Why not settle for something better,as many of us here do.
As a pot stiller and not a refluxer,for me the lesson learned was a good wash,a double distill and carbon filtering.
My current neutral wash is cheaper and faster than a VS,possibly tastes better,certainly better than a bottle of Lidl Vodka.And currently coming in at £1.30 a bottle,ex capital costs and labour.
I can't comment on refluxing,but think the Capt. and AM may have given food for thought.
Be of brave heart,you have the gear,maybe all you need to do is refine your technique.
Robert.

[Anavrin]

I've just taken a leap of faith and started my first non turbo grain wash, I'm still gonna add some sugar, it'll be half grain half sugar, and once it's cooled down I'm gonna use half a tube of Allinsons Bread Yeast, ferment at 24°c and see how it gets on, I've just posted my efforts here

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3087

[Boozoid]

Thank you all gents for trying to get my results on track.

I collected product into 300ml jars, so none of the temp change distillate post 78.2C (82C) made it into my hearts. That stinky jar is still sat on the shelf.
The wash tasted pretty good to be honest, prior to distilling. I was surpised as I was expecting a vile taste. Just a dry, bland wine.

The packing is stainless steel pan scrubs. I don't believe they are coated.. I tested one in a salt bath for a week to ensure it was stainless, and I also boiled the pan scrubs a few times in water to remove any contamination prior to insertion in the column. I will examine the scrubs again and scratch them up.

The Boka is stainless and was TIG welded so no flux, I also ran some junkahol thru the still to clean out the pipes. I cleaned the copper condensor in mild Nitric acid and rinsed.

I don't have any copper in the vapour path bar the condensor itself, so maybe this is something I should look at.

All the jars have the burning nose sensation, but the 1st jar is a strong heads and the last jar a strong tails smell, they are defo different to the other 6 jars. With the stable temps I believe I got good seperation. I guess I need to run again slower with more reflux to be sure.

I've just had a sniff of the product I diluted and ran thru the wine bottle carbon filter, Its at 35% and has very little smell. I'm running it thru the filter again to see what happens.

[chill]

Once or twice I have had product that had a very harsh burning smell. I think that was from the low wines, I don't recall. I thought I had made a chemical warfare product! I chalked it up to an odd infection and binned it. I'd consider that a rather remote possibility but thought I would mention it. Sniffing what I had distilled would result in a coughing fit, not sure how strong yours is.

Chuck

[ant]

Is the yeast you used a turbo yeast? They have a reputation for producing a bad taste that needs carbon filtering to remove, most, of it.

I know you get a higher initial concentration with them but as you have a still that just means higher yield with worse taste. The trade of lower yield from a non turbo yeast for a better tasting product seems ok to me. Use a bigger fermenter do an extra stripping run or whatever it takes to get the volume you want from the lower abv wines of a less harsh yeast.

[packapoo]

Is the yeast you used a turbo yeast? They have a reputation for producing a bad taste that needs carbon filtering to remove, most, of it.

I know you get a higher initial concentration with them but as you have a still that just means higher yield with worse taste. The trade of lower yield from a non turbo yeast for a better tasting product seems ok to me. Use a bigger fermenter do an extra stripping run or whatever it takes to get the volume you want from the lower abv wines of a less harsh yeast.

Many here don't see Vodka Star as a turbo yeast, which puzzles me a little as, in my NOTW, it's listed as turbo? Which is why I don't consider it.

[Easydrinker]

Many here don't see Vodka Star as a turbo yeast, which puzzles me a little as, in my NOTW, it's listed as turbo? Which is why I don't consider it.

In the past,this has puzzled me too.
I consider it to be a "Turbo",some I think don't because of the non-use of carbon in the wash,and here we go back to the recent early history of such yeasts.
Well,that and the fact it can produce a decent neutral spirit finds favour with many.
To me a Turbo is a mix of yeast and nutrient that quickly ferments a high sugar loaded wash.
I can make bread yeast do the same,at less cost.
I don't think we can call Allinson's a turbo even though it can behave as one!
Maybe 'tis all words,marketing and snobbery?
Robert.

[Fil]

im a newbie at this but what stands out to me in the original post is the high fermenting temp, 22C when brewing beer i control my fermentation temps below 20C generally 18-19C.

I ferment at lower tems as my understanding is that above 20C yeast are encouraged to produce more fusel alcohols?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusel_alcohol