New guy and AG

[eiscaer]

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking on various forums for a while now trying to learn as much as possible before taking the plunge. This forum in particular and the "best practice" pdf have been invaluable, and I tip my hat to the experience and knowledge of many of the members here.

I've finally bought an airstill and decided that I'll jump in to AG to start with. Because really, why not?

So I boiled up a corn mash 5 days ago, which seems to have converted well with malted barley and has apparently finished fermenting. This brings me to my potential issue.

I'm trying to clear the wash so I can run it but I don't think it's going to clear very well. After a day of a clearing agent and cooling the fermenter, I can see little change. I understand the airstill has little to no tolerance for anything other than clear washes because of the potential for boiling over etc. However, if I used a smaller amount in the still would that potentially mitigate the issue?

Also the wash seems to have caught a touch of a lacto infection right near the end. It's sour smelling but not to the point of being unbearable. I'm going to run it anyway because from what I've read it may still work out. Even if it doesn't the process has been a great learning experience. I don't believe an infection should affect the distilling process but I thought I should mention it just in case it may lead to problems with clearing.

Cheers everyone and I look forward to hearing people's thoughts on how I might get this wash to clear or if there's a way to run it without to much risk.

I apologise to any moderators if they feel I've posted this in the wrong area, but I felt it best to post here due to the relevance of running an unclear wash in an airstill.

Eiscaer

[Icefever]

Welcome to the forum Eiscaer..

From your post you seem to have a grasp on what your doing.....now to try and work through it all.

The PDF is indeed invaluable when it comes to get the best from an Airstill, for the wash that seems to have gone ok until almost the end.

As for clearing..you say it's only a day....they can take a long time to clear, I've had them take a week or more....the old adage of "Patience is a virtue" kicks in at this point....

You say that you think it has an infection sorry to hear that.
I believe that it's still possible to run the wash, but I've never had this bridge to cross....hopefully one of the other guys will be along soon.

I started off with the Airstill, many years back and have never had a boil over...that's not to say it doesn't happen it does.

You've done a lot of reading up on this hobby of ours, so I take it that you know about adding small copper pieces to the still...along with a cap full of conditioner....and maybe cut back on the 4 liters, just to stay safe.

All the best, let the forum know how you get on.

[Mash]

So I boiled up a corn mash 5 days ago

Eiscaer

Welcome aboard and thanks for your kind words about the forum.

OK I have to start at the start. Have you made AG before? What temp did you mash at?

Has is fermented out?

What makes you think it had an infection?

Sorry for the questions, but at the moment we don't have enough detail to be accurate.
First thoughts that come to mind.
A.. Wait.
B.. If it has finished ferment (and I currently doubt that) it can be chilled to help clear.

B.. Clear for distilling is not the same as clear for a glass of wine. There is clear enough.

[eiscaer]

Thank you for the replies. I'll try to answer the questions you've asked me.

I do know about the use of copper in the still. I have some ceramic boil enhancers and some big chunks of ex industry copper to chop up and clean so that is all taken care of.

I've never done AG before. I've never distilled anything before. I know it's jumping into the deep end but that's never scared me off before.

Mash was done at 85 degrees Celsius, about one hour. Cooled to 65, malted barley goes in (ratio of 4:1 corn to malt) . pitched whiskey yeast the following morning about 9 hours after the barley. This time delay is how the infection got in I'm sure. Probably need to chill it to pitching temp quicker to stave off infections.

The reason I'm sure it's got a lacto infection is the smell. Sour, slightly acrid. I've had beer go the same way before many years ago. However the taste of the wash seems OK. Just dry and corn like.

I'm reasonably certain fermentation is over because the density hasn't changed in two days. I will check it again tonight. Unfortunately my fermenter doesn't really help indicate fermentation activity because it doesn't seal perfectly at the lid. I'm reliant on SG reads to be sure. Started at 1050, down to 1000 now.

I will wait it out another day and see if there is any change. If not, chilling it seems a good option and giving it some more time. I am on my way home from work now so I'll have a look when I get in.

[Easydrinker]

Firstly,WELCOME!
We love that you have joined us here,and your post is fine where it is,the thread police don't work very hard on this site,-content being more important than placement,at least in MHO.

Airstill is a great one to start with.
AG,why not? Ambitious maybe,but you are well read.

Time will clear a wash,it may take a week or two,but the solids will settle.

Cloudy washes and airstills;
This is really a wholly under discussed thing.
IF you are aiming for a neutral spirit with an airstill,then for sure, a clear wash may yield the best results.
However,if you are going via AG,then I assume that you are wishing for more flavour carry through.
A larger still would allow you to run cloudy washes more safely.
The problem with an airstill and running a cloudy wash is merely one of a possible "PUKE",and to a far lesser extent,it literally "blowing it's top"

If you cannot wait for a clear wash,then sit the wee beastie in the bathtub or shower tray and put a fist full of "boil pieces" ceramic or copper in it,this way you will contain any mess.

My own 4 litre airstill tends to only get used for gin production these days,but in the past was used with many a dodgy wash,
It never puked or blew it's top.
I always run that on the kitchen draining board.

A quick thought,did you rack off to a clean vessel before adding your clearing agent?
If not,I suggest that you do so.


Robert.

[eiscaer]

Hi Robert,

In answer to your question, I did rack to another fermenter. I fermented on the grain (in a mesh bag which was removed and squeezed yesterday), and then racked off.

I've had another look tonight and it seems to be clearer but it now has small groupings of bubbles on the surface, which would lend credence to the notion that it may indeed not have finished fermenting. SG readings remain unchanged. Is it possible that the bubbles are a result of the suspected infection I wonder. I had a small taste and smell out of the sample I took for gravity reading, and the smell is less intense I think than yesterday. The taste is slightly sour but not vinegar. When I took a measurement yesterday the fluid had more sediment in it which may have lead to a stronger smell and an inaccurate SG.

I'm keen to keep the corn flavor rather than aim for a neutral, but I'm not sure how much will come across. First attempt may not work perfectly after all.

I think this wash has yet to reveal it's final nature and is in need of more clearing before I can judge it. I'll look again tomorrow and try to chill it if I can.

I will heed the warning regarding puking with the airstill. I'm not keen to have an accident on my first run so patience is definitely the key.

Thank you everyone for the advice you've given. It is most appreciated and I will keep you all posted on the results.

[GrunthosTheFlatulent]

I think the potential problem of an airstill 'puking' is down to de-gassing rather than clarity.

If you are aiming for a neutral spirit then the clearer the better, but as you have used a mixed grain mash and a whiskey yeast then clarity shouldn't be an issue.

I usually drain 4 litres of wash into a 5 litre water bottle, screw the lid on, shake it well, release the lid and allow the fizzing to subside, repeat until it doesn't fizz anymore, then use ceramics and copper in the still plus the silicone conditioner. If you're worried then just try 3.5 litres.

I have toured many Scottish malt whisky distilleries and no attempt is ever made to clear or de-gas the wash, it just gets pumped into the still straight from the fermenter. Of course, their wash stills have tall necks with sight glasses set into them so they can turn the heat down if it's frothing too high.

[Mash]

Mash was done at 85 degrees Celsius, about one hour. Cooled to 65, malted barley goes in (ratio of 4:1 corn to malt) . pitched whiskey yeast the following morning about 9 hours after the barley. This time delay is how the infection got in I'm sure. Probably need to chill it to pitching temp quicker to stave off infections.

85c isnt a good mash temp 65 would be better. I am not sure what your final wort was to be honest. 85c is close to a boil IMO not a mash.

The time gap & no chilling won't help - but it is not the reason for the infection if it was covered. The yeast probably had nothing to work with, so infection took hold.

Did you add any sugar?

I have to say 85c has stumped me.

What temp was it next day when you added the yeast?

[Mash]

(ratio of 4:1 corn to malt) . pitched whiskey yeast the following morning about 9 hours after the barley. This time delay is how the infection got in I'm sure. Probably need to chill it to pitching temp quicker to stave off infections.

The reason I'm sure it's got a lacto infection is the smell. Sour, slightly acrid. I've had beer go the same way before many years ago. However the taste of the wash seems OK. Just dry and corn like.

ratio of 4:1 corn to malt
Corn (can mean many things in the UK) do you mean wheat or maise?
Do you mean malted barley?

I would run a 2/3 fill of the clearest and see what you get.

[eiscaer]

Hi everyone,

Degassing seems to be very important. I whisked it a lot before leaving it sit an hour and then throwing finings in. Maybe the shaking action will be more effective.

The mashing temp I chose was based on several different sources and seemed to work. I got a good gelatinous texture and once the temp had cooled enough, the barley thinned it right out as expected. No added sugar. SG readings at the beginning compared to now indicate an alcohol % of approximately 6%. The mash was 4kg cracked corn and 1kg of cracked malted barley. Tasted a little sweet before distilling so I suspect I've had a successful conversion.

It's still got some bubbles this morning so I'll take density again tonight and see if it's changed. I'm assuming if it has not, then the wash is simply gassing off for some other reason. If that's the case I'll siphon the clearest part off the top into a bottle and shake it. Maybe just 3 litres. Then if I sit that a while and no more bubbles appear I'll run it. It has cleared a lot over night and I'm feeling it's not too far away from being clear enough.

[Mash]

I got a good gelatinous texture


I am now properly puzzled.
That is not a phrase or a description I would have ever expected to hear in reference to an AG mash.

I must be missing something.

Do you have any an links to other websites that discuss this?

[GrunthosTheFlatulent]

I think there might be a difference in terminology, to any of us who are also All Grain brewers of beer then it means predominantly malted barley. For a Scotch type whisky it should be all barley.

elscaer is clearly talking about a corn whiskey. Knowing nothing about this or how it is mashed I've just googled and found this method.

[eiscaer]

Hi everyone,

Gelatinous texture. Think thick, gooey and difficult to stir (like really thick porridge). It's the cornerstone of good starch extraction with corn.

Once the malt is thrown in, the mash will thin because of the conversion from starch to sugars. The whisky yeast I used also contains amyloglucosodase which aids in conversion, just in case the starch hasn't totally changed to sugars.

AG obviously yields less sugar so the wash ferments or to around 8% or less. In my case, about 6%.

[eiscaer]

I think there might be a difference in terminology, to any of us who are also All Grain brewers of beer then it means predominantly malted barley. For a Scotch type whisky it should be all barley.

elscaer is clearly talking about a corn whiskey. Knowing nothing about this or how it is mashed I've just googled and found this method.

That is one of the methods I read. Although they all follow the same basic principals.

[Mash]

Thanks guys. I have learned something.

Really interested to here how this comes out.