StillSmart

This post is about the use of Oak to age and mature spirits but I decided not to post it in Ageing & Flavoring for reasons that will become apparent.

I have been toasting my own American White Oak for over two years and, on the advice of a friend hereabouts, I routinely put my Oak Biscuits in boiling water to remove surface tannins just before adding to a maturing spirit. The water will normally turn a feint yellowish/brown colour like a weak tea.

Some time ago I was sent some commercially produced Oak "mini staves" which I gladly tried out and posted a brief report on same without going into too much detail. I actually recycled the spirit as the final outcome was waaay too smoke-tasting for my palate.

Having a small bag of those 'mini staves' lying around I decided to give them another try and this time treated them as I would my own Oak. I put two 3" mini staves into a small jar, added a litre of boiling water and left them to soak for a few hours. On my return I was very surprised to find the water had the dark ruby colour of a mature whisky and had something of the smell of same.

Of course the taste was very watery but it led me to ponder if the commercial Oak product had been pre-treated or perhaps, pressure treated, with some kind of essence flavouring and/or colouring?

On further investigation I cut the 'mini staves' across the middle and found the water had only penetrated Little more than 1 millimetre and this is where the colour and aroma had come from.

If I put 1litre of grain spirit @ 65% on 2 of my Toasted Oak biscuits (about the same size as the mini staves) and I zap the spirit first, I will have a reasonable but only partial result after 24 hours.

Anyone else find anything similar? I'm not saying there's anything wrong here but, for me, the almost instant result from the commercial product at least begs questions.

AM

I would think it is the toasting level.

I can tell you, there is no treatment with any flavors in the oak staves, at least the StillDragon products.

If it is a small stave or the whole barrel, it makes no difference, the liquid only gets to the top layer of the wood. That is the reason, why used barrels can be "brushed up" again, by grinding off the top layer and charring again.

The manufacturer of our oak products is very sofisticated with charring and toasting, they choose the variety of wood, even the cut of the woods very carefully and they do it now for a very long time, since they sell mostly to wine production, where they are the top player.

They have several kinds of toasting, from traditional over wood fire to toasted to radiant toasting by flame. They have an exact flavor profile for each variety, which makes it quite easy to get to a certain flavor. Which is something you find with NO OTHER oak seller, nobody of them even bothered to describe the flavor nuances.


Please don't use boiling water for your oak treatment. You kill the delicate flavors by over heating.
Just give the oak staves in cask strenght spirit, like ab out 65% and let it rest not to cold or too warm, for about 5 weeks. That is all. Tasting is very important. If this one variety was too smoky, we offer other varieties, too, that are lighter.

The levels of toasting vary considerably.
All the way from " has this even been near a fire" to "was this in a forest fire"

the toasting is very different depending on the usage - wine barrels will often be "just toasted" but spirit barrels can be charred (heavy toasting)

The darker the toasting the more caramel & sweet flavours lighter toasting, more often used in wine barrels also adds oak tannins & vanilla flavours.


Remember you can always take the wood out - you can't get the flavour out. Taste it as you progress and take the wood out just before you think you need to IMO.

Had fantastic results with dominoes in red wine.

This specific topic, “Using Bought Oak” has intrigued me for some time.

When purchasing an Oak product, to use as an aging agent , we are inevitably, at least initially, persuaded by the information that the seller gives us.

However, most of us have learnt over the years, that what is not told to us is equally important?

I think it might be well argued that those who use Oak products ( purchased or home made) to age their whisky are well aware of the various varieties of Oak normally used for this process.

The genus Quercus, of the Beech family, is what we commonly call 'Oak' Of this genus there are a number of varieties of interest to us as aging agents.

Possibly the two most commonly known are American White Oak ( Quercus Alba) and French, or English Oak ( Quercus robur ), this latter, commonly called “French Oak” because of its historic links with the French wine industry.

In the case of the American White Oak, whilst a specific variety in its own right, it isn't, by any means, the only variety of Oak in Northern America. There are many other specific varieties of Oak , including the American Red Oak (Quercus rubra ), widely used as lumber in the construction industries.

So. basically, if one buys a product described as 'American White Oak', or 'French Oak' you can suppose that you know which variety of Oak you have.

But what if you are not told which variety of Oak it is?

Here I stand to be corrected but, to the best of my knowledge, there is no botanical evidence for the existence of a variety of Oak known as “American Oak”. If it was either of the varieties “American White Oak” or “French Oak” surely it would say so?

So perhaps we have to take it that this omission to say so is an implied admission that it isn't either of these well known varieties. As the term” American Oak” has no specific botanical meaning can we be sure that the product is even Oak at all. After all, a made up name/description can be quite legitimately be applied to anything you like.

They are not claiming it to be something it isn't. They are simply saying it is something they give this name to. (A name....not a properties.)

Now, some such staves do have the appearance, to me, of being re-constituted wood, there is no saying that they do not include Oak in their make up but, paradoxically, nothing to say they do, other than suggested by their name “American Oak” which cannot be a description of the actual material they are made from as there is no such variety.

I have to admit that when Aidanmac said, “...it led me to ponder if the commercial Oak product had been pre-treated or perhaps, pressure treated, with some kind of essence flavouring and/or colouring?”, I had come to pretty much the same conclusion myself after using them, though unsure.

There my well be many who enjoy the results of using them. For me, the question remains, what are they made from?

We use American White Oak (Quercus alba) when it says American Oak, as simple as that.

The French Oak is mostly Sessile Oak (Quercus Petraea). However Pedunculate (Quercus Robur) can also be in some blends.
Clearly, our manufacturer does not give away every last bit of secret to his products, but fortunately distillers can choose their favorite variety with our flavor descriptions. One hint: compare the amount of µg vanillin is in the essence.

Sunshine wrote:I can tell you, there is no treatment with any flavors in the oak staves, at least the StillDragon products.

..and I didn't mean to suggest as much. Actually, the ones I referred to were sent to me, as a sample, by a US manufacturer after I contacted them with a link to this forum

I used the ones you sent me too but the results weren't what I look for in my Whisky profile. I prefer to season and toast my own staves and biscuits from large AWO planks I buy from a specialist supplier and cut to size myself. That way I have a fair idea where my Oak came from in as much as we can ever know

I have to admit I chuckled a bit when I read your post where you said, "Please don't use boiling water for your Oak treatment. You kill the delicate flavours by over heating."

I rather think the heat in the BBQ during toasting and later charring with a MAPP torch would do a lot more damage than a drop of boiling water. I believe high pressure steam is used by some distilleries to finish the charring process and I think this would have the same or similar effect of cleaning the surface of the Oak.

In any case it works for me.

AM

as I you said: it is a ready made oak product.

It is supposed to produce a certain flavor with a certain way of using it. Every other way will and up in a unforeseen endresult. It may be better or worse, but it will not be like it was ment by the manufacturer. Yes, there is a dffference between washing the flavors out with alcohol or steam. As I said, I reffer to the instructions the manufacturer gives.

But non the less, there are many ways to perfection.

one more: We have a distillier in our vicinity who had made a Whisky aged in a barrel made of Austrian Oak. Most distillers don't use such an oak, it is too harsh and has much too much tannine, they say. But hey, he made gold medal at Destillata with it, and very high score on the World Spirits Award - just saying....

forgot the link:

http://www.google.com/translate?hl=en&s ... &sandbox=1

Sunshine wrote:Yes, there is a dffference between washing the flavors out with alcohol or steam.

Actually, I was referring to the practice, of some distilleries and cooperages, of quenching or halting the charring process using steam. This cracks open the charred surface of the interior of the barrels giving what I believe is known as a Crocodile Char. I was not suggesting one could go about "washing the flavours out with alcohol or steam".

Something lost in translation, perhaps?

AM

Last year I did a course dedicated to Oak additives & oak barrels.

I learned two things...
1.. Barrels are too expensive to do properly.
2.. Barrels are too risky to do badly/cheaply
3.. Oak additives should be purchased from a reputable supplier (the cooperage/tonnellerie) this is the only way you can be sure you know what you're getting.
although this can make them enormously expensive, they are much cheaper than barrels.

I am on the course next week to learn to add up

Slightly off topic but does anyone know what oak to age Port with?

I use french oak. Dominoes. 64g per gallon.

The still spirits oak in a bottle is alright too.

Mashy where and what is this course you refer to ?