Air Still Pro - Neutral Vodka?

[Copperhead road]

With persistence and trying different methods, you will get there Infinity.

[TDick]

Thanks, I'll take a closer look.

The ingredients are fairly expensive where I live, and it looks more difficult than sugar washes, so I've got to figure out if going down a grain route is going to be worthwhile for me.

Yes it IS more difficult. And running a sugar wash is more difficult than buying a bottle of Tito's or Bombay. But here we are.

TO ME, one of the most "fun" things about this "craft" is seeing what others do and then personalize it.
I got into watching "Moonshiners" (recording it so I could ff through all the bullshit) and - with NO previous knowledge - thinking
"If I was making that mash, I'd do ....."

One thing to consider. When most of these Tried & Trues were created and refined, there was no Angel Yeast (I've never used it)
and rarely did they even use amalyse.
Just malted grains.
So perhaps experiment - and what I would do in 2025 - I'd try Horse Sweet Feed - Molasses Oats Barley and Corn - with Yellow Label Angel Yeast and see what happens.
And keep in mind in TRADITIONAL Moonshine the corn is just there for flavor, no alcohol. So you could do a weebix or corn flake "moonshine".

A BIG advantage you have with an Air Still is that you can keep it on a small scale. If you did a 15 - 20 liter mash that's more than enough Stripped to do a good Spirit Run. I have A LOT of trouble with metrics but Jimbo's 2 pounds grain per gallon works out to about 300 grams per liter.

Is that right?

[WelshGin]

Good chap.

Only alter/change one aspect of process, temperature, time, ingredient at ONE time. Then you will be able to learn from your change/experience. Record what you are doing. Replicate advancement, do not inadvertently replicate failures.

As WSC said, well you know this......

[Infinity]

Good chap.

Only alter/change one aspect of process, temperature, time, ingredient at ONE time. Then you will be able to learn from your change/experience. Record what you are doing. Replicate advancement, do not inadvertently replicate failures.

As WSC said, well you know this......

Yes, I'm still plugging away at it.

I've only been changing one thing at a time so far, which is why I've been at it for about 4 months now, and still no luck!

I'm now doing multiple washes in parallel to try and speed up the experimentation a bit. Maybe I'll hit lucky at some point.....

[Mash]

Okay let's get you sorted.

Your softened water could be the issue. Do you have a tap that is not going through the water softener.

You don't mention your fermentation temp? That might not help?

What are you fermenting in and how long does it typically take to finish?

[Infinity]

Okay let's get you sorted.

Your softened water could be the issue. Do you have a tap that is not going through the water softener.

You don't mention your fermentation temp? That might not help?

What are you fermenting in and how long does it typically take to finish?

Yes, I've started to suspect the water. I'm currently trying a couple of washes with bottled spring water, so I'm hoping that will determine whether it's a problem or not. Currently, my entire water system goes through the softener, but I could add a tap before the softener if the spring water shows it to be a problem. The softened water has been a constant in all of my attempts so far, so it's definitely a candidate for the source of the problem.

I've tried a range of temperatures, but usually around 30C with bakers yeast and 21C with champagne yeast. It's mostly been around 7 days to complete, but some attempts have been quicker, and 1 took 3 weeks (but I think the pH level might have dropped too low on that one).

I've been mostly using an aquarium heater in the fermenter on most attempts to keep the temperature constant, but I had wondered if that is causing a problem, maybe scorching or stressing the yeast? With the current spring water washes, I'm trying a slower ferment at lower temperatures (without any heater), which I assume will take longer.

[Mash]

Water: softener is the problem.
How does you softener work? Salt or mechanical?
That said does not matter. They are both a no no. Fit a tap.
We can get into water chemistry later if necessary.

Ferment temps: sounds OK. Bread yeast likes 25c but that's not a big deal.
Aquarium heaters are OK (just OK) let's get you tasting the good stuff before upgrading stuff.

Yup. Time and heat are interchangeable. But for best results you have to run a the sweet spot for the yeast. Yeast strains are very different. Lager yeasts run cool, but don't do well hot. Equally bread yeasts don't do well cool.

Sort that tap, or visit a neighbour with a bucket.

Lastly...
Taste your wash all the time.
Some people seem to think its toxic until the second it becomes vodka
It will tell you what's going on better than any gizmo you can buy on amazon.

[Copperhead road]

Taste your wash all the time.
Some people seem to think its toxic until the second it becomes vodka
It will tell you what's going on better than any gizmo you can buy on amazon.

That is so true…,

[Infinity]

The water softener is a salt one, which is the most common type here.

The water here is unusual, so much so that the biggest manufacturer of hot water cylinders specifically names the town where I live and excludes their products from any warranty unless the water is softened. The water is the only constant that I've had through all of my attempts so far, so here's hoping it's the problem.

It really hadn't ever occurred to me to taste the wash. Even if I did, I have no idea what I'd be looking for, but maybe I should give it a try!!

[Mash]

Taste it. Sweeter to start with. Then you will taste the alcohol appearing. Then the sweetness will go. Teach your taste buds. Next time you will know where it should be.

Water chemistry will be a thing, sounds like we will need to reduce the alkalinity. Can you get phosphoric acid over there?

Can you send me link to anything about your water. Water company report, any local council testing that sort of thing?
Be good to understand it, before we get into any chemistry.

[Infinity]

I haven't been able to find any local drinking water analysis information, other than the fact that it passes national standards (whatever they may be).

I've usually been adding citric acid to 25L washes to get the pH level to around 5.0 at the start.

The pH level usually crashes right down after a day or so, and I've been adding baking soda to bring it back up on most attempts.

The washes I have going at the moment are using only bottled spring water, so I'll be able to see if that makes any difference.

[TDick]

Actually, thanks for the reminder!
I ordered PH strips shipped from Walmart and they came in last week.
I've got too much wash to run, so it will be a while before I'm fermenting anything. But I need to go ahead and check it.

I know AI is frowned on in other places
and it's not unusual to respond, "No that's wrong!"

That said, here's what ChatGPT has to say

Chat, here's a question from Still Smarter Forum.
A member is having trouble and believes it's his water. He has a salt based water conditioning system. How can he adjust the water?

He wrote, "I've usually been adding citric acid to 25L washes to get the pH level to around 5.0 at the start." But didn't say what the initial ph level was

If he’s using sodium-softened water, the alkalinity is usually already quite low, and sometimes the pH is lower than normal tap water.

Adding citric acid blindly can:
Push the pH TOO LOW (4.0–4.5 or even lower)
Cause slow or stuck fermentations
Stress yeast
Make nutrients less available
Cause odd smells or long lag phases
Yeast absolutely hate starting at pH below ~4.2 unless it’s a rum wash.

A lot of people “fix” their water when the real issue is over-acidifying the wash before yeast even begins.

What he should do (simple steps)
1. Measure the pH of the water before adding anything
Have him check:
Plain tap water pH (softened)
Wash pH after mixing sugar + water but BEFORE citric acid
Many softened water supplies start around pH 6.8–7.2, not the 7.8–8.2 typical of hard municipal water.
Some even drop to pH 6.2–6.5.
If his wash naturally ends up in the 5.2–5.6 range after adding sugar and nutrients, he’s already in the yeast comfort zone.

if it helps, he's located in New Zealand.

ChatGPT said:

That actually does help — New Zealand water is typically:
Very soft, naturally
Low in alkalinity
Often slightly acidic (pH 6.2–7.0 depending on region)
Low in dissolved minerals (low calcium, low magnesium)

Which means:
He absolutely does not need to be adding citric acid at the start.
In many NZ regions, the wash will already mix down to around pH 5.2–5.6 with sugar alone.
If he also runs it through a salt-based softener, that strips out what little calcium/magnesium were there and often drops alkalinity close to zero.
Result:
Even tiny amounts of citric acid crash the pH rapidly
Yeast get stressed
Ferment is slow or sticks
He blames the softened water (when it’s really the pH crash)

Here’s the NZ-specific guidance you can give him
1. Measure three things, no assumptions:
Tap water pH (softened)
Mixed wash pH (before citric)
Mixed wash pH (after 12–24 hrs)

He will likely find the wash starts in a safe zone already.
2. Do NOT pre-acidify a sugar wash in NZ water
Target pH at pitch:
Ideal: 5.2–5.4
Acceptable: 5.0–5.6
Bad: < 4.6
NZ soft water usually lands right in the sweet spot naturally.

3. If he truly needs to lower pH
For 25 L:
Start with ⅛ teaspoon citric, mix, re-test.
NZ water will drop fast — go slow.
4. If the pH sinks during fermentation (very common there)
Use:
½ to 1 teaspoon calcium carbonate (chalk)
OR
1–2 teaspoons crushed oyster shells (buffer)
Oyster shells work fantastically well in soft/low-alkalinity countries like NZ, UK, and much of the Pacific.
5. If softened water still seems problematic
Suggest he pulls water from:
An outside hose bib (often bypasses softener)
The laundry cold tap
Or from the softener bypass valve if installed
NZ water is naturally yeast-friendly — he’s better off using it un-softened.

You mentioned stripping out magnesium and other minerals. Some recipes call for adding a crushed human multivitamin.

Ah yes — that idea comes up sometimes, but it’s a double-edged sword, especially in a soft-water scenario like NZ’s.
Better alternatives
Instead of random multivitamins:
1. Yeast nutrients
DAP (diammonium phosphate) — primary nitrogen source for yeast
Yeast hulls / Fermaid O / Fermaid K — contain B-vitamins, magnesium, amino acids
Magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt) — very cheap and precise
Calcium carbonate / gypsum — buffers pH and adds calcium

For 25 L sugar wash:
¼ tsp gypsum (CaSO₄)
⅛ tsp Epsom salt (MgSO₄·7H₂O)
½ tsp DAP (if nutrient deficient)
This gives all the benefits of a multivitamin without the unknowns.

[TDick]

While I was chatting with Chat, after that conversation I had to add:

Now a question FOR ME. I always get confused with the relationship of ph to acid and alkaline, adding something to INCREASE or DECREASE ph. Can you state it for me in very basic terms that I MIGHT be able to remember?

The basic idea
pH measures how acidic or alkaline a solution is.
Scale goes 0 → 14:
0–6 = acidic
7 = neutral
8–14 = alkaline (basic)
The rules for changing pH
What you want to do What you add Easy way to remember
Lower pH (more acidic) Acid (citric acid, tartaric acid, vinegar, etc.) “Add acid → pH drops” → think “acid goes down”
Raise pH (more alkaline) Base / alkaline substance (chalk, baking soda, lye, lime) “Add base → pH rises” → think “up in the sky”


Extra for fermentation
Yeast likes slightly acidic: pH ~5.2–5.4
Too low (pH < 4.6) → yeast stress, slow or stuck ferment
Too high (pH > 6) → risk of bacterial contamination
So when adjusting your wash: if it’s too low, add base; if it’s too high, add acid.

Think:
Acid = down (pH drops)
Base = up (pH rises)
So if your wash is too low (too acidic), add a little base to bring it up.
If it’s too high (too alkaline), add a little acid to bring it down.

Optional mnemonic:
“Lemon drops make pH drop; chalk climbs pH sky-high.”
Lemon = acid → lowers pH
Chalk (or baking soda) = base → raises pH

[Infinity]

The pH level at the tap is around 7.0

I've also tested the bottled water that I'm using in my current attempts, and that's also around 7.0, so pretty much the same as my tap water.

I always adjust the wash to around a pH of 5.0 at the start of the fermentation.

It always crashes down to around 3 after about 24 hours, and I adjust it back up again to around 5.0

[Copperhead road]

The pH level at the tap is around 7.0

I always adjust the wash to around a pH of 5.0 at the start of the fermentation.

It always crashes down to around 3 after about 24 hours, and I adjust it back up again to around 5.0

I am not sure what country you are in but the water sounds like a real issue there.
I’m in Australia and have never heard of a water softener. I fill my fermenters straight from the tap and in 10 years never have any issues with PH. To be honest I don’t even bother checking the PH and all my fermentations finish no problem.

[Infinity]

The pH level at the tap is around 7.0

I always adjust the wash to around a pH of 5.0 at the start of the fermentation.

It always crashes down to around 3 after about 24 hours, and I adjust it back up again to around 5.0

I am not sure what country you are in but the water sounds like a real issue there.
I’m in Australia and have never heard of a water softener. I fill my fermenters straight from the tap and in 10 years never have any issues with PH. To be honest I don’t even bother checking the PH and all my fermentations finish no problem.

I'm in New Zealand.

The water comes from deep underground aquifers. It tastes very good, and it meets clean water standards, but it is very hard with high mineral content. That's why I'm currently trying it with bottled water. Household water softeners are pretty standard in this area.

As I said earlier, the water is my current focus of attention, but I still don't actually know if that's the problem. It might be something else entirely. All I can do is keep trying different options.

[TDick]

Do you have an outdoor spigot to water that doesn't go through the conditioner?
Also if you have a farm supply house they - in the US - carry oyster shell for poultry.
( I had also thought of stopping by local restaurants that serve them. "Hey, do you just throw away your oyster shells?"

[Infinity]

Do you have an outdoor spigot to water that doesn't go through the conditioner?
Also if you have a farm supply house they - in the US - carry oyster shell for poultry.
( I had also thought of stopping by local restaurants that serve them. "Hey, do you just throw away your oyster shells?"

No, the entire water supply goes through the softener before it connects into the house. That's how they're usually installed here.

If the bottled water works better, I can then get a tap added before the softener, but it seems pointless going to that bother and expense until I've determined if it is the water that's the problem. Hopefully, the bottled water will determine if I can focus solely on the water as the source of the problem. I guess the wash should be ready around the end of the week.

[Copperhead road]

Do you have an outdoor spigot to water that doesn't go through the conditioner?

Infinity already said if the bottled spring water solves his issue he will install a tap before the water softener.

[Mash]

Thanks, I'll take a closer look.

The ingredients are fairly expensive where I live, and it looks more difficult than sugar washes, so I've got to figure out if going down a grain route is going to be worthwhile for me.

I've already spent countless hours plus the equivalent of at least 30 bottles of vodka on equipment and ingredients, and haven't had a single drinkable bottle out of it yet! Maybe this isn't the right hobby for me!!

Is it was easy everyone would be doing it.

Bugger the grain, let's fix your water and make you grin.

[WelshGin]

You gentlemen appear to really enjoy the technicalities of this....

20 years ago when I built and flew radio controlled helicopters, big ones, 6 servos, 25-40cc IC engines, rotor speeds exceeding Mach, ground sped up to 200 knots (230mph), yes technicalities are important. Orientation even more so, few real helicopter pilots could direct a model helicopter, it is like playing chess, with the board spinning.

However, just enjoy. Your creation.

[TDick]

I think I may have posted a reference to WineO's before...

Yes, that's the recipe I've been using. I've tried the original recipe, and done some variations by adjusting some of the quantities a bit. I've found that I need more citric acid than the standard recipe to get the starting pH level right.
However, the pH level does then crash right down after a day or two, so I've tried adding baking soda to bring it back up again, and that seems to have done the job.
The only exception to the recipe is that I haven't been adding gypsum. I don't know what the purpose of the gypsum is, or whether that would affect the flavour?

Just checking to see if you've made any progress.
I was also going back over YOUR issues so that I can learn as I've got WPOS* stripping runs going.
And dialing back, I thought I saw a comment that your original ph was around 7, and you brought it down.
All that said, I walked my recipe through ChatGPT - *it told me what I'm doing is no longer WPOS- so we decided to call it Super Clean.
It's CERTAINLY not my creation, just fooling around with and tweaking what other folks have down.

Since you've have so many issues, I hope you'll give this trial size recipe and run and see what happens:

Super Clean Sugar Wash (Metric, Simple Neutral)
Purpose: Low-stress, clean sugar wash for neutral spirits
(Simple, repeatable, no specialty nutrients)

Target: Final volume: 12 L
Wash ABV: ~10–11%
Suitable for deep stripping / small stills. Volume designed for 3 stripping runs.

Ingredients
2.0 kg white sugar
1 lemon (juice only)
1 × 5 g packet Lalvin EC-1118
Baker’s yeast (nutrient): 1 level Tbsp (8–10 g)
Epsom salt: tiny pinch (≪ ⅛ tsp)
Water: to 12 L total volume

Directions

1. Invert the sugar
Bring 1.0 L water to a boil
Add 2.0 kg sugar, stir to dissolve
Return to near-boil, reduce to simmer
Simmer 20 minutes
Add juice of 1 lemon
Simmer another 10–15 minutes
Remove from heat and allow to cool

2. While preparing sugar, prepare yeast nutrient (boiled yeast)
Add 1 Tbsp dry baker’s yeast to ~250 mL water - separate from sugar.
Bring to a boil
Boil 10–15 minutes (fully kill & rupture cells)
Allow to cool
This provides nitrogen, vitamins, sterols, and trace minerals.

3. Build the wash
Transfer inverted sugar syrup to fermenter
Add cooled boiled yeast nutrient
Add cool water to reach 12 L total volume
Target temp before yeast: 22–26 °C

4. Yeast hydration & pitch
Rehydrate 1 × 5 g EC-1118 in 50 mL clean water
Water temp: 30–35 °C
Stir gently, wait 15–20 minutes
Stir once more, then pitch into wash

5. Fermentation
Ferment at 14–20 °C
Strong start within 12–24 hrs
Finish in 7–10 days
Final gravity: ≤ 0.998

6. Clearing
Allow wash to settle or rack off yeast
Clear wash = cleaner strip

7. Stripping run
Strip deep (down to ~5–10% output if equipment allows)
Typical combined low wines: ~45–50% ABV

8. Low wines treatment (optional, for wider cleaner hearts)
After stripping and before spirit run:
Add sodium carbonate (washing soda, Na₂CO₃)
Do not use borax (sodium tetraborate).

Sodium Carbonate.jpg

Sodium Carbonate 2.jpg

Dose: 1 tsp per liter of low wines
Stir thoroughly
Let rest covered 12–24 hours
If it doesn't easily dissolve, I have "pre-vented". Used my Air Still to raise temp to 70 C for 30-45 minutes.
THEORETICALLY could burn off some acetone and methanol.

Proceed with spirit run
At 40-60% after stripping runs, I do NOT dilute low wines for spirit run.
Discard 100 ml foreshots/heads on spirit run as normal, take 100 ml cuts.

If looking for high ABV "Vodka" continue additional spirit runs until you get desired results.

Notes
Moderate gravity avoids pH crash
I have used Fermaid-O yeast nutrient but Boiled yeast provides clean, neutral nutrition. Cheaper, perhaps better than Fermaid.

NO DAP, no gypsum, no tomato paste or additional citric acid(other than the one lemon)

Designed for simplicity and repeatability

Once you are comfortable with this - assuming it works! - you can increase sugar for higher ABV.

[Infinity]

I've got a couple of small washes waiting to be distilled, but I haven't had time to do it yet. Both batches are the same except one is made with bakers yeast and the other with EC-1118.

These latest batches haven't had the same pH problems as my previous batches, and at the very least, the wash smells quite different to all of my previous attempts.

I'll update on progress when I get to distilling!

[TDick]

I've got a couple of small washes waiting to be distilled, noth batches are the same except one is made with bakers yeast and the other with EC-1118.
I'll update on progress when I get to distilling!

Looking forward to the results!
I did the High ABV 20# Sugar/12 Gallons of Water and can't really remember my numbers.
I kind of did Automatic Stripping runs today - 3 runs gave me 1500 ML at 45%.
At that ABV I don't think I need to put the Arm & Hammer to it, but I'll still pre-Vent @ 70 C for 30 minutes then cap and run.

[Mash]

Tbh you are running about like a kid full of orange squash.

I am going back to basics. So we get you grinning with a good glass full of your hooch.

Fact: good distilling follows a good ferment.
What sugar are you using?
What yeast?
What temp control?