Best Barrel size for 2 year project?

[J A]

I'm hoping to make a few gallons of malt whiskey and experiment with a few different recipes and aging techniques.

I'll definitely do some aging on chips and/or staves but I'd like to get a barrel going that would be nicely aged in a little less than 2 years for a special occasion. I know that a barrel that's too small will over-oak in that amount of time. One that's too large wouldn't have time to really impart flavors and, though I have a pretty good capacity in terms of equipment, I couldn't realistically fill up a barrel that's very big.

I've seen a couple of barrel size comparison charts that indicate that whiskey in a 10 liter barrel for around 4 1/2 months will be equivalent to a full-size barrel for a year. If that's at all accurate, then 2 years would give me a equivalent of a 5-year aging. Does this sound about right? I know that a lot will depend on the barrel, whether it's first-use or used before, the quality of the toast and char, etc. Might that time be a little too long and risk over-oaking?

I wouldn't have any trouble filling a 10-liter and that's an amount that seems like a reasonable maximum amount to work with and have on hand. If it made more sense, though, in terms of time and volume, I could manage to fill a 20 liter.

I'd like to hear about any specific experiences and any other advice and insights will be greatly appreciated!

[Mash]

You would much more control and a better finished product using a stainless vessel with staves of choice.

Why were you thinking barrel?

[J A]

You would much more control and a better finished product using a stainless vessel with staves of choice.

Why were you thinking barrel?

I figure that I will definitely do some small batches with staves and/or chips but I like the idea of a barrel project for a few reasons. There's a bit of a "cool factor" with a barrel and tapping it would be aimed to coincide with a significant family occasion.
Aside from that I'm making the assumption that if the barrel is big enough, it may be slightly more effective at smoothing and mellowing. Maybe I'm off track there and will appreciate any info that'll set me strait. I have the idea that a big enough barrel may give a more "authentic" aged flavor profile, but I suppose that having contact a similar amount of surface area in the form of staves may give the same end result.

And, BTW...is there an advantage to stainless container over glass jars or jugs (other than the size of the opening, perhaps)?

[Mash]

I can agree with cool. But unfortunately that's as far as it goes.

Stainless or glass both work. Stainless is more available in suitable sizes.

Had you considered tapping a lined barrel?

[J A]

I can agree with cool. But unfortunately that's as far as it goes.

Stainless or glass both work. Stainless is more available in suitable sizes.

Had you considered tapping a lined barrel?

I have a second-hand connection with a local distillery and so may be able to obtain a used barrel to play around with but it's possible and even likely that I'll plan on the "special occasion" batch being aged on staves so I can keep it slow and steady. In then end a special, fancy set of bottles or decanters will make things sufficiently cool and festive in lieu of a barrel if that's not the way to go.

[Fury_tea]

Have you considered the BadMo style hybrid barrels?
Stainless and wood combined. The do a couple of sizes but i think the 6.4L is most popular. The thinking behind them is it's a similar ratio of wood to liquid as a larger barrel, and apparently some benefits are that it allows the "micro-oxidation" you get with a regular barrel and harder to over-oak than a similar sized all wood barrel.

They're a bit pricey, but depending on your skillset there's some guides to make your own. I have one on my wish list for when i come into some money (bloody kids always siphoning it off).

Definitely have the 'cool' factor, to me.

[Copperhead road]

Have you considered the BadMo style hybrid barrels?
Stainless and wood combined. The do a couple of sizes but i think the 6.4L is most popular. The thinking behind them is it's a similar ratio of wood to liquid as a larger barrel, and apparently some benefits are that it allows the "micro-oxidation" you get with a regular barrel and harder to over-oak than a similar sized all wood barrel.

They're a bit pricey, but depending on your skillset there's some guides to make your own. I have one on my wish list for when i come into some money (bloody kids always siphoning it off).

Definitely have the 'cool' factor, to me.

Them badmotivator barrels seem very popular in America.
I don’t know anyone in Australia that has one though.
There is a lot of threads on other forums were people are just making there own.

[J A]

Have you considered the BadMo style hybrid barrels?
Stainless and wood combined. The do a couple of sizes but i think the 6.4L is most popular. The thinking behind them is it's a similar ratio of wood to liquid as a larger barrel, and apparently some benefits are that it allows the "micro-oxidation" you get with a regular barrel and harder to over-oak than a similar sized all wood barrel.

They're a bit pricey, but depending on your skillset there's some guides to make your own. I have one on my wish list for when i come into some money (bloody kids always siphoning it off).

Definitely have the 'cool' factor, to me.

Them badmotivator barrels seem very popular in America.
I don’t know anyone in Australia that has one though.
There is a lot of threads on other forums were people are just making there own.

Those do look like a good compromise between barrel aging and chip/stave aging in a sealed vessel where there's no air exchange . I'll definitely look into it. I'd have no problem making the end cap.

[Mash]

No fun here they don't. They look like someone who wants to put his hand in your back pocket for an over engineered solution to a simple problem.

[Mash]

For some of our newer members... it may come across that I am "environmentally friendly" that would be a mistake I am just I tight

[Copperhead road]

No fun here they don't. They look like someone who wants to put his hand in your back pocket for an over engineered solution to a simple problem.

I think that is why so many people are making Badmo clones, judging from different build threads it doesn’t seem that hard if you are that way inclined.
I think the genuine Badmo barrels are overpriced, for that kind of money I would invest in a traditional oak barrel.

[J A]

No fun here they don't. They look like someone who wants to put his hand in your back pocket for an over engineered solution to a simple problem.

I think that is why so many people are making Badmo clones, judging from different build threads it doesn’t seem that hard if you are that way inclined.
I think the genuine Badmo barrels are overpriced, for that kind of money I would invest in a traditional oak barrel.

I got to thinking about it and realized that smaller might be better and thought about charred oak canning jar lids. Of course, I'm not the first to think of that so there's a fair amount of info about using this method for quantities from pint to half gallon, each size being different in terms of aging time based on the ratio of oak to liquid. Super easy to make and should be pretty effective.

[Copperhead road]

JA that’s pretty cool you have innovated baby Badmo’s. Looks like the oak disc seals well with them kind of lids. Were they 2 piece lids??
I have never seen that done before.

[J A]

JA that’s pretty cool you have innovated baby Badmo’s. Looks like the oak disc seals well with them kind of lids. Were they 2 piece lids??
I have never seen that done before.

I haven't made any of these yet but there's a source or two online. I grabbed these pics from the internet as an illustration of the concept. The idea came to me as I was researching stainless containers from which to fashion the Bad-mo style barrels. I was thinking that smaller containers would speed up the process and that there must be a simpler way to close a vessel with an oak lid. I thought of canning jars and lid rings and realized that replacing the steel, sealed lid with an oak disk would do it. I figured I couldn't be the first person to make this connection and, sure enough, as soon as I searched on the internet, up popped some discussions, pics and sources.
Making the wooden discs would be super easy but getting them to seal without leaking is a bit of an ordeal, apparently. Also, the tolerances are tricky because the swelling of the wood can put pressure in odd places and may crack or break a jar.
I'm definitely off to the races with the concept though, and will arrange to acquire some good oak and start experimenting.

[Copperhead road]

JA that’s pretty cool you have innovated baby Badmo’s. Looks like the oak disc seals well with them kind of lids. Were they 2 piece lids??
I have never seen that done before.

I haven't made any of these yet but there's a source or two online. I grabbed these pics from the internet as an illustration of the concept. The idea came to me as I was researching stainless containers from which to fashion the Bad-mo style barrels. I was thinking that smaller containers would speed up the process and that there must be a simpler way to close a vessel with an oak lid. I thought of canning jars and lid rings and realized that replacing the steel, sealed lid with an oak disk would do it. I figured I couldn't be the first person to make this connection and, sure enough, as soon as I searched on the internet, up popped some discussions, pics and sources.
Making the wooden discs would be super easy but getting them to seal without leaking is a bit of an ordeal, apparently. Also, the tolerances are tricky because the swelling of the wood can put pressure in odd places and may crack or break a jar.
I'm definitely off to the races with the concept though, and will arrange to acquire some good oak and start experimenting.

JA sounds like you are handy on the tools with carpentry work, I think you should still make a Badmo clone using a stainless vessel as well.
You should do a thread on it also.
Anyway looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

[J A]

JA sounds like you are handy on the tools with carpentry work, I think you should still make a Badmo clone using a stainless vessel as well.
You should do a thread on it also.
Anyway looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

The bad-mo containers are pretty straight-forward in terms of construction and I can come up with a way to press the lids in. Some spigots are really expensive but the type that seem to be in use are pretty reasonable.

Something that doesn't seem to add up is the claim that the bad-mo is designed to mimic a full size barrel in terms of aging characteristics. I tried figuring out the ratio of quarts to lid surface area for various sizes of bain marie pots of the sort that are being used. The ratio of square inches of wood contact area to quarts of liquid goes from almost 6.5 to almost 20 for 12 quart down through 1 quart, the smallest being the most wood area per quart. A traditional barrel seems to have around 14.5 square inches of contact per quart.

According to my calculations, that makes a 1.5 quart have about the same ratio as a barrel with everything else having less wood contact. The 1.8 gallon size that Bad Motivator sells has a ratio of around 7.5 square inches per quart and that's half as much as a full barrel. The site claims that 1 year to 4 years is a good timeline for aging in the 1/8 gallon size, similar to a full-size barrel but with the ratio being so different, I don't see how that would work.

I'm not finding a lot of info on actual aging times of various size bad-mo type barrels but it seems pretty likely that a very small one in 1 or 2 quart size might work much quicker and that one of a couple of gallon should do pretty nicely for a couple of years aging. I suppose the only way to find out is to build a few different sizes and get some whiskey in there.

[J A]

I made a couple of oak canning jar inserts to get a feel for how the system might work. First was a thin disk that was very hard to char. It was a little thick for the lid band and very warped from the heat. I was able to make it not leak when upside down but on its side it still wanted to drip.
I made another iteration starting with a thicker blank, charring first and then flattening it and routing a thin lip on the edge for a seal. That one seemed to work pretty well and seems to seal okay. I'm letting it sit for a while to see if it drips out. There's a guy on Etsy who supplies thin oak disks but it seems like those are difficult to char, like my first attempt. They're best used in conjunction with charred cubes or stave cuts. I'm hoping that my second design will allow for a fully deep-charred surface in contact with the spirits and will hold up without leaking. I'm thinking that a beeswax seal may be in order.

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[J A]

I'm pleased to say that the prototype aging lid I made the other day is holding liquid very nicely and even in just a few days is developing a nice tinge of color.
Given that the same size insert can be used for pint, quart or half-gallon, the ratio of wood to spirit can be varied for slower or faster aging. Definitely something to this, I think.

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