Sugar Wash - Non TP

[packapoo]

First post here.
Been cruising around searching for a neutral type wash that doesn't take a lifetime to ferment. Have done a couple of TPs that didn't ferment out in the time frame indicated, you know the 'couple of weeks' trick. First one took 7 months; second went on for 16. Sure once they got into the bottle, made decent gear, but the time....
Anyway then went for a weetbix and all bran wash and for comparison, a wheat germ as well. The 'couple of weeks' has grown to four so counting well under way. These latest ones have gone down in the summer months, so keeping a viable temperature shouldn't be a factor.
Been curious about the whys of TP and added acid, versus TP and Epsom salts, (no acid used) as in the MUM wash.
Googleing around a search, tomato paste wash, came up with an interesting theory posted on Yahoo Distillers for a neutral based around Vitamin C, no tomato in sight.
Has anyone come across this one? There were a couple of thoughts in there that seemed to make sense and apparently the wash worked.
Guess I can give that a go next (when I finally get a fermenter empty that is).

[chill]

Hi and Welcome!

You are doing something wrong. I don't know what, but something. We are making washes, not wine. So, let's start with basics:
1. What went in the wash, including how much water?
2. How did you determine it was not done?
3. Do you have any way to measure the current ph of the wash?

Chuck

[Phantom]

My usual schedule of events is as follows.......

Water and cane sugar in bucket hot to dissolve sugar
Next day - at room temp pitch yeast (these days, vodka star but originally SS triple distilled turbo yeast). Then just leave it alone - strictly speaking it should take 7 days to finish, I'm not in a rush so just leave it a fortnight - all at room temp.
Then if its a vodka star batch it usually has dropped clear enough to siphon straight into my boiler, if its the SS triple, well their "system" says to use carbon in the ferment so it routinely needs to use finings/clearing agent, which usually takes 24 hours, before siphoning into boiler.......

Then distill.

I like to let it back down from 94% back to 40% or less and redistill (done using reverse osmosis water - local tap water is quite hard with medium to high calcium). Then redistill, then let back down to exactly 40%.

Finally its carbon filtered and ready to drink.......

If I wasn't so lazy and stuck to the times and temps as per the pack instructions, from mixing to first distill would be 7 or 8 days.......normally the quickest home brewing I do.

Hence something in your process isnt right. Sure a lot don't like using turbo yeasts, I have no problems with them, but even with TP, lentils, or other washes, your time scale is massive........

the SS stuff is made in NZ so I can't see why you couldn't use that.......

[packapoo]

Hi Chuck,
Thanks for the welcome - I figured I'm doing something wrong, the what is a problem. The first two washes were 20 litre, total volume. Birdwatchers recipe from HD site. 18.25 litres water, each.
First one went down mid summer; ingredients for this are all obtainable here. OSG 1095, final 991.
Second went down mid spring; only had 71B yeast to hand so used that x 2 sachets. Gave it some Trono to help the yeast, slow to kick in even so, so fed it some additional DAP based nutrient. OSG 1093, final 1002.
Soft cover fermenters initially in case of blowing and for ease of monitoring, then when under control, cap and airlock. Finish determined when airlock stops turning and water levels out.
I have no way of measuring ph.
Both my latest washes are as per published recipes. Took the time to invert the sugar for both, probably needn't have. 23 litre wash for weet bix, OSG 1094 which is higher then recipe indicated. 17.25 litres for wheat germ, OSG 1094, also higher then I'd expected. These two are pretty slow and showing clearer everyday, but airlocks are ticking away.....

[packapoo]

Hello Phantom, yes the SS stuff is plentiful here.
Back in 2000 when I first got interested in distilling, HD was pretty much the oracle and I determined right at the start - without experience I know - to stay away from turbos, thereby staying away from extra cost/time, with the filtering that ensues.
I'm not in a hurry with anything I do brew-wise, B, W or S. On the spirits front tho' I'd like, and need, to get continuity of experience. Then I could progress to grains and flavours other then essences.
I have a (soon to be) son in law in Britain, who uses an airstill and all the stuff I shun. In his circumstance, the choices he made make sense. In fact looking forward in a couple of months to be knocking his back and learning.
Your time scale is positive, I'll have to investigate that vodka star yeast.

[Almanac]

Water - Sugar source - Nutrient - Air - Yeast That's the magic formula and, if something is going wrong with your washes, you need to examine each in turn to find out what is causing your problem. In my experience, it's usually just one of those things that is suffering in some way that is the cause of difficulties with fermentation.

The two main causes of long/slow ferments are a lack of nutrients and/or a high level of acid (low pH)

I personally don't like the TPW but the tomato paste does provide sufficient nutrient for a standard wash. However, TPW does suffer from one potential problem - high acid - and, depending on the quality of your water source, it can be problematic.

You absolutely need a pH measuring system and these are quite readily available online. With this in hand you can determine the pH of your base water and, more importantly, the starting pH of your wash just before you pitch your yeast. (Note: once you've sorted your pH problem you will still need a pH measuring system to check your starting pH for each wash. Some people are lucky enough to have a water source that needs no adjustment )

If your water supply is from a public system you may have high levels of Chlorine and/or Limescale both of which are yeast killers but are curable in that they can be resolved by filtering before use

Once you've mixed your wash, less yeast, the ideal or target pH is 5.2 This will allow the yeast to function normally. The next stage is to add air, or more specifically Oxygen, to enable the yeast to breed and grow before starting to convert sugar to alcohol.

With these things in hand, and a steady 24/7 temp around 25oC, there is no reason for your ferments taking more than week to finish.

AM

[Luckyshot]

Hi Packapoo
Welcome, I hope you learn a lot on this forum, I certainly have.When I first tried TPW and followed the recipe they always started of OK then stalled at maybe 1010-1020. So I used a full tube of Lidle Tom paste,a big teaspoon of marmite (i think Vegemite is the same thing in your part of the world) some DAP,half a teaspoon epsom salts, and I inverted the 5kg sugar and made up to to 5g water let it cool to 24c pitch with 4 tablespoons, of bakers yeast. That works for me.The Fermentation is slower than Vodka star but nothing to worry about.Hope this helps.

[John51]

Finish determined when airlock stops turning

I think this is your problem as ime, the airlock never really stops. I've got a fermenter in the kitchen that is overdue to be run and was started on the 13th of December. (6Kg/Vodka Star.) A change in room temperature has it bubbling and it is currently bubbling every 5 to 10 minutes. Has been like that for over 2 weeks.

imo 0.995 is good enough for a finish and a decent rule of thumb (assuming no stuck ferments) is bubbles more than 2 minutes apart means it's done.

[packapoo]

Hello all,
@A M - I've read various you've posted on your water problems and idly pondered whether I should follow your lead and get a pH reading system and in fact did a search first up this morning to see my options. Not too bad as it turns out, both on availability and pricing. My water is tank via the sky, with bore top up when things are dry during spring/summer, prolly about 4 times per year. The bore is clean and palatable, never tested though as all drinking water is boiled from force of habit.....the brewing water just comes out of the tap. So, the 5.2 point taken thank you.
You are spot on though as regards TP, which is why I'm puzzled by the old citric/lemon juice fall back, when I'm suspecting Epsom should be more apt.

@Luckyshot 100% for the Vegemite - tho' Marmite is also available here again now after production was severely curtailed when the Christchurch earthquakes trashed the plant. Have a wash going I've been dripfeeding Vege to for a couple of days, certainly gets up and sings when when the hit happens. And thanks for your recipe.
I found this forum some time back and filed it under 'later'. Now that later has happened my overwhelming take is that I've not come across any bigheads posting, unlike at least 3 others I could name.
Thanks Jimmy

@John51 ermmm, I have observed just that....multiple times. And on that note my Weet Bix and Wheat germ washes are both ticking at about 12/minute, so no fear of them being stuck. Hoping for a natural settling, guess I better hunt out the gelatine....

[Phantom]

See while I know you can use vege/marmite, I don't/wouldn't. Both have far too higher salt levels for safe use IMO. I'm happy to use either just a straight crushed vit B1/thiamine tablet or even a crushed vit B complex one.

I do keep a brew belt handy though, cos while I usually manage a reasonable ferment at ambient temps, I find that sometimes it needs a little warmth and the belt will keep the ferment at 24C......

[Easydrinker]

Hi,and welcome,
Just my opinion on your problem;
Your stated OSG's seem high to me,demanding a lot of the yeast,and giving the pH a lot of time to fall.And indeed other factors to kick in.
If you wish to stick with TP or weetabix,maybe cut the sugar level or increase the amount of yeast pitched.
If you want a consistent,predictable neutral wash,then until you find a workable one for you,I recommend a "Turbo",such as VS or alcotech 48.With less sugar to water than stated,and I only use half of the pack of yeast.
Whatever you use,a cheap aquarium heater will rapidly pay for itself,by ensuring a consistent temperature.
I expect my washes to be ready to strip within 14 days,the few that don't have stalled, (usually)because I have over sugared.
Finally a cheap book of litmus paper will reassure you that the initial pH is right,if you don't wish to invest more in a testing "pen".
Hope that helps and wishing you distilling happiness.
Robert

Edit;it took me so long to tap this,two more posts happened!

[RumJohn]

Attn: packapoo

Go back to the begining and start with a simple sugar wash. Use a brown sugar at .25 Kg per liter of water (Waikato River). If you want to throw in some molasses do so but cut back on the sugar a bit. Thats all the nutrition you need with brown sugar. Your in your summer. Should take less than a week to ferment.

Use bakers yeast. I dont even know what Vodka Star is. I dont mess with ph.

You have a good still. Great for anything you want to make depending on how you configure it and operate it. 80% ABV rum (wide open with no packing) on up to 96% neutral (equilibate, take product off at not much more than a slow trickle, and full packing). Mount it on a minimum of a 30L boiler. 50L even better. The longer the run the longer the heart cut will be.

Do a beer stripping run followed by a spirit run.

[packapoo]

@Phantom the salt level in Vegemite and the ilk is a valid point, one I had pondered. Having regard to the popularity of TP washes, using Vege in a non TP wash, as like say, the one I mentioned in my first post based around Vitamin C, does seem to have some positives, (particularly when the vitamin B at the house has run out). I live a little remote and thinking isn't always forward enough. . Once I find a wash I can get out in a 2 week timeframe, then that's where I'll stay for a neutral.
After being a bit slow on the uptake with my beer brewing, last winter I built a coreflute and polstyrene hotbox, lined with 2 inch fibreglass wall insulation. A heat belt and temperature controller take are of the rest, so have that to hopefully move things forward this winter.

@Easydrinker. Robert, thanks for your thoughts. The OSGs were certainly higher then I'd expected, I hadn't thought too much about that aspect as a possible reason for my prolonged ferments. Nor had I considered over-sugaring, another poster has suggested the same.

@RumJohn, your location may be a wee way off but you seem to have some local knowledge . A simple sugar is where I expect I'll end up, if I can avoid TP I will - not that I have anything against it, but with suggestions coming here I'm seeing a way forward. Your still operating protocol is the one I've adopted. Just have to get the through put is all.

Cheers guys and thanks all.

[googe]

You could try this viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2863 . I'd slit my wrists if I had to wait 7 months for a wash lol. You need heating mate, get a heat may or belt. Though, I still get mine to ferment out in 2 weeks in Melbourne winter, which would match your summer/ spring.

[packapoo]

googe, thanks for that, had seen the thread and only partly read thru, now complete. Who'd a thunk? Other half tells me has been seen in the shops in town but not currently so prolly seasonal. Seed merchants have 6 or so varieties to choose from, FWIW, but I guess a bunch of leaves and into it is all. Cocky down the road has some sort of fodder beet down as a trial crop, had occurred to try if a snapper bribe might shake some loose.