Bubble plates and Still Dragon kit

[Admiral Toad]

I am wondering if the SDE people and you more experienced distillers can answer me and probably a few others some general queries

At present I tend to run all grain washes for whisky through simple pothead that I had made (thanks again Brian !)twice ie stripping run then spirit run with cuts for the finished article ready to go into barrels

For Neutrals pothead strip then T 500 column and a filter through escencia

I really would like to upgrade and like quite a few have been looking at the Still dragon configurations

So here goes

Many of the sample configurations show 3 or more bubble plate chambers with a reflux condenser

So what in effect do these bubble chambers achieve ? Do they make the process more efficient eg higher abv but allow flavour through ?

I notice too some of the guys are talking about packing columns above bubble plates

I guess my queries boil down (no pun intended) to these questions

If you were going to use the Still dragon kit

What set up for traditional full flavour whisky from all grain wash ?

Likewise what setup for neutral sugar type washes ?

Are either of the above finished spirits achievable in one run ?

And would any neutral produced still need carbon filtering ?

I'm sure there wont be totally definitive answers but I would appreciate your collective thoughts

[Anavrin]

Hi Admiral Toad

I've never triple stilled whisky on a pot still but I have purchased a SD torpedo bubble plate to use with my packed column, I still strip in pot still mode with no packing and no torpedo, but for my spirit runs I now used the torpedo under my packed column, it works as an extra distillation stage, each bubble plate section you add, adds and additional distillation stage like a thumper keg, so for stripping with a bubble plate and condensor fitted, it would mean that you only need to do one stripping run but get a double distilled product, with three or four plates, you could make spirit cuts straight from a 10% wash.

As for neutral, it could be that you can already achieve 94% from your packed column but the addition of the torpedo gives several advantages, firstly it makes your packed column more efficient, the first theoretical plate in a packed column can be quite large in terms of hight, and by adding a physical plate you have removed this allowing more theoretical plates to excist in your packed column giving a purer product.

Another benifet is it buffers the vapour coming from the boiler making the column much more stable and less suseptable to becoming unstable dues to changes in power, something else I've found is the neutral take off rate can be increased by maybe 0.5lt per hour on a 2" column.

You can also see what's going on thought the sight glass, you can see exactly the point when adjusting the power that reflux starts, I've only run mine once since I got it but it's made a massive difference to the purity of my neutral, I'm looking forward to using it again, maybe next weekend if I have enough strip by then

Hope this helps and to the best of my knowledge what I've said is correct but I still se myself as a relitive beginner as I've only been going less than a year, I'm sure others can offer advice too

[Easydrinker]

My understanding,not experience;
3 or 4 bubble plates will allow you to run a distillation faster,because it will be higher ABV,but will not strip out flavour.
For that you need more plates,or a packed column above.
The packed columns above bubble plates is done as the less costly option to more plates,as roughly 13cm of (SS scrubbies) packed column equals a theoretical stage,or plate.
3 such stages or plates are needed for 90%ish product,however it rises to 7-9 stages or plates for 95%+
And yes it seems there are people producing finished spirits without stripping first.

Robert.

[YHB]

But. You need a lot more power.

[SDeurope]

Already well explained above.

Each bubble plate acts as distillation stage, considered an amplifier. The boiler itself counts a first distillation stage, each subsequent bubble section or packed section adds to it.

Together with a dephlegmator you run it as real (active) reflux column, and with cooling management you can control the product take-off speed and with that the collection ABV. The larger the column diameter and the more power you put in the fast you can collect at high ABV, the number of plates / packed section give you control over the purity of the distillate.

Using three distillation stages (above the boiler) is a good start to produce flavored spirits like whiskey or (fruit) brandy in one go, which is a huge advantage compared to pot-stilling with stripping and spirit runs. Since 3 plates + dephlegmator is the max allowed here in Austria for unbonded stills it's what all the farmers use and I can tell you that they produce excellent brandies and whiskeys that way.

[SDeurope]

BTW I can see that it's often written wrong here, because it's StillDragon without a space in between. If you search for "Still Dragon" with space you will most likely find a rock band, a video game and a roller coaster called like that.

[Easydrinker]

Fair point!
The Brits and their attempts at making the world use correct grammar.
Sometimes we over enthuse.
Robert.

[Easydrinker]

But. You need a lot more power.

Unless I am in total brain-fart mode I do not see this or what you are trying to say Brian.
Elucidation?
Robert.

[YHB]

But. You need a lot more power.

Unless I am in total brain-fart mode I do not see this or what you are trying to say Brian.
Elucidation?
Robert.

-----------------------------
Just that - you will need more power.

Most of us here appear to run packed columns and are looking to upgrade. With a 2" packed column in reflux mode you need 1 to 1.5 kw of power, Any additional power is useful to bring the still up to temperature more quickly but not needed for production.

To get bubble caps working efficiently you need more power, from what I can see most people with a 4" bubble plate use over 3 kw of power during production.

The Pro-cap 36 appears to need between 2 to 2.5 kw per cap. this is the design I am basing my build on and therefore with my boiler I am limiting myself to a single cap, any more and the still would not work as it should.

So my statement "You will need more power" was simply a general heads-up for consideration by anyone thinking of upgrading. But particularly Admiral Toad who has a T500 boiler and I believe is limited to 1800W.

[Admiral Toad]

cheers Brian these are the sort of things I want to check to see if it's a go-er for me and others

You're correct about the T500 wattage so do others and Michael at stilldragon think this may be a problem

In truth I would love to jump up to a 4" system but in practical reality (and to keep the peace) the size of 2" kit and 30 litre boilers makes more sense

[SDeurope]

There are always two sides of the coin. On one hand you will want as much power as possible, but only to shorten the heat up time. During the actual run a lot less power is required.

I know it has been done to run a 4" column with several plates with 2000 to 2200W, but I would not want to operate on the lower limit.

ProCaps per se do not really require more power, but you can put in more power without flooding the plates. You usually may want put in about 10% more power during normal operation to feel the benefit of the ProCaps, pushing it to the limit for max take-off rate does not benefit the product quality, but we are talking mostly about distilleries working on the hour (but then you would go for a larger column diameter, larger boiler and a lot more power instead).

I can't tell how far you can go with a T500 and it's 1800 or 2000W, but it should do well with a Baby Crystal Dragon with 3 or 4 bubble sections. The next big hit will be our 30L stove-top boiler with Baby Crystal Dragon available in January, put that one on a 1800-2000W induction stove and you are definitely good to go as well. A lot of excitement on our side.

[Admiral Toad]

Thanks for that

Heat up time isn't much of a problem it usually takes about 110 mins

So you think that the 1800 watts on a T500 boiler should run one 2-4-2" torpedo with the T500 column on top ? If so would the pro cap version be a better bet ? by the way I have a power controller already for this boiler

If so i I think I'll be ordering one up for a try

Longer term I'm sure to look at more bubble plates and alternative boilers

[Admiral Toad]

BTW still planning to kep using plain pothead with alembic dome for all grain whisky runs

This kit is to try and improve neutral runs (and have a bit fun as well!)

[SDeurope]

Yes, it's all about the fun as well. We are not just running a business here, but are heavily involved in the Austrian distillers scene. We are officially certified MoB ("Masters of Booze") by the Austrian Chamber of Agriculture and members of the MoB Upper-Austria Association, we attend of lot of tastings of fine spirits and just love good booze. There is a lot going on here in Austria and whenever we participate we write up a report about it. Right now it's all posted to the SD Europe category over at the StillDragon Community Forum, but we are going to start our own blog shortly.

I think you should be fine with a torpedo on top of a T500, no need to go for ProCaps if it's not about maximizing product take-off rate.

[Myles]

A realistic upper limmit for a UK domestic supply is 6kW. By my calculations that should run 3x ProCaps per plate. Or 4 (possibly 5) standard caps per plate.

You basically have 2 options for a plated column for flavoured product.

Either run it as a reflux column, product maintained at 90 to 94 ABV for the entire run.

OR Run it like a pot still with attached thumpers. The product ABV drops throughout the run just like on a pot still, but with tighter transitions and a higher overall ABV.