lobby for legality

[Opus 27]

I think it\'s a reconised fact in many european countries that binge drinking among their native youth is virtually unheard of. This has generally been attributed to the fact that children grow up drinking alcohol as a beverage with their parents and subsequently learn moderation.

I\'m still anxious to hear if anyone has an idea that would give the opportunity to put pressure on our MPs without putting anyone at risk of a visit by HM customs. It should be pointed out that the reason the police don\'t take an active interest is that it is a civil offence and not a criminal one.

Heres a thought, How about Home Brew Shops having a petition in shop to collect signatures, No addresses just signatures.
Opus 27

[bluecap]

Opus I completely disagree with you, as it is now I can buy what I need online and from most homebrew shops, so in my opinion its not broken, most people that don’t do what we are doing don’t even know it goes on and if highlighted all it takes is a few bigoted bored people with to much time on there hands to start complaining to there MPs because they have nothing better to do which would force the authorities to clamp down on it as after complaints they cant be seen to do nothing.
So I repeat “If it aint broke don’t try to fix itâ€

[hoppinmad]

gotta say i\'m agreeing with bluecap, its a sensitive issue and we dont want to draw any undue attention to ourselves. opus is right the law is archaic and seemingly ridiculous given that we can freely brew wines and beers to any strength, BUT there are a lot of people out there that will object and all the hmrc need to do is target the brewshops and we\'re all stuffed. in conclusion, it would be great to change the law but i cant see things going our way,
hoppin

[optic]

Opus27

I reckon that the retailers/importers of the equipment that us home distillers use would be the best people to stick their heads above the parapet on our behalf.Im pretty much sure that the goverment departments know that home distilling is growing due to the paperwork that must be generated by importing stills,what you said about spirit sales in NZ going up since the hobby was legalized I can well believe,as since I started this hobby I have bought more bottles of single malt in particular,and I bet like me everyone on this site would never ever sell any spirit that they have made and only give a bottle or two to close family and friends loss of revenue would not be an issue.

Optic

[Opus 27]

Hoppinmad, Bluecap and Optic,

Thanks, You\'ve got my drift, what I\'m trying to do is start some sensible discussion on the subject. A certain Miss Pankhurst stuck her head above the parapit once and got a degree of equality in our society. All I\'m saying is lets talk about it after all change has to start somewhere.
Opus 27

[phlogiston]

I tend to agree with Bluecap. Yes, it would be great if it were legal, so we could stop worrying about "the revenue", discuss our hobby openly and share the fruits with friends. But others have mentioned the downsides of attracting the attention of the lawmakers or moralisers and I think we may be better off not attacking unless we are sure we can win.
Yes it's silly law, but logic doesn't prevail with politicians and busybodies.

[Jimmy]

The big advantage that I can see with it being legal here is that we could develop a still making industry in the same way as the NZ guys, with our engineering heritage I could see this being a winner. I think, being realistic, it\'s probably too small for anyone higher up to care about one way or the other. If loads more people were doing it, they\'d have to move but as it is there\'s no noise from either side and no harm done so it\'s probably not even worth spending money on thinking about as far as they are concerned. Just a guess.

[Opus 27]

I can appreciate peoples concern if we attract attention but like you say, Jimmy, there could be some real advantages in the long term. But how do you kick something like this off without putting the hobby and it's followers at risk. I don't pretend to have an answer but it has to be worth debate and thats exactly what we're doing.
Opus 27

[hoppinmad]

opus27,

debate is one thing but theres no use in us moaning to each other about how unfair things are, if we are going to make a difference then ultimately someone needs to lobby a sympathetic mp for change. i like you have no answers but as jimmy said the answer probably lies in the hands of the suppliers we all use, either individually or as a group. maybe we could draft a petition on here that we and other non-member sympathisers could add our thoughts (if not names and addresses lol)to
cheers hoppin

[optic]

If there was more of us doing this hobby we could all stand together and say im Spartacus,like I said in an earlier post the suppliers would be the best people to start the ball rolling,I expect some of the importers/retailers look at this forum,if so are any of you willing to air your views on this subject?

Optic

[bluecap]

It matters 0 whether we debate it or it will never happen, think about it Mr. and Mrs. average are bombarded weekly with dedicated programs on TV showing alcohol abuse in town centres, its nothing to do with what we do I know but it’s the same drug so our beloved government(s) will never do anything that is pro alcohol, and from there point of view why should they when they get 75% tax on all spirits sold and are over a trillion pound in debt.

[Phantom]

Ha ha! well I'll stick my head above the parapet with this topic.......
I basically agree with Jimmy and Opus.
Yes, it would be excellent if it was "legal", but you need to recognise what the actual offence is here in the UK. It's not illegal to own a still, it's not illegal to make a wash/mash, or have the recipe and/or the ingredients.
The offence is putting the mash/wash in the still and switching it on.
It's not a civil offence, it's a criminal offence, but rather than the old bill, it's HMRC that are the enforcing office - in other words, it's a "customs offence". Either way it's a criminal offence to evade payment of taxation.
If you dig through the HMRC site, you'll be able to understand that it's nothing to do with health and safety, hygiene or trading standards, it's purely about "REVENUE PROTECTION".
As to those who have made "changes" in recent years, the New Zealand government have found, as a result of allowing distillation of alcohol for home use, that the revenues collected from tax paid, licensed products has gone up - due to the increased interest in "Spirits" generally.
The situation is different here. We have government who treat alcohol, tobacco and road fuels as their own personal piggy bank. It would take a huge amount of proof that it's a good idea to allow home distillation.
As for Europe, if you look at the Brouwland website, they also sell high %/purity alcohol, though they will only, apparently, sell it over the counter as it's too much hassle to mail order it. Oh and they're in Belgium, not Italy.
The binge drinking thing, is, in my view, more about distrust by successive governments since about the time of WW1 when licensing regs where first introduced. They seem to have thought that the "plebs" would all be pissed up, thereby affecting wartime production, munitions etc.
Plus, while the media, specifically the print media, get into a lather about "binge drinking" it's only been a matter of a few years since the partial liberalisation of licensing regs. Having access to booze, pretty much 24 hours a day, is a "sea change" of a cultural matter.
It would take many years to get into the "cafe culture" that Southern Europe is familiar with. Most of the binge drinking "problem" is a Northern European thing, and it's entirely coincidental (NOT) that binge drinking is the problem of places/locations/countries where there are strict controls (don't forget the bloke who introduced "Prohibition" into the US was a strict Calvinist of Scandanavian descent - and where are some of the strictest controls and highest prices.......)
So rather than getting onto the bandwagon and panicking about "youth", binge drinking, etc I'm happy to wait for people to get used to having 24 hour access.
Of the other restrictions? Make it so that the person who sells, or buys on behalf of the underage person, personally liable i.e. if a supermarket, corner shop, offie or just misguided adult is caught buying for, or selling to someone underage, they get a mandatory 5 year stretch - with no chance of control. Oh and that would apply to individuals, the licensed premises person and in the case of companies/corporations - the MD/Chief Executive as well. You'd only need to publicly bang a couple of them up and bingo.
A bit like my pet hate (being a trucker), of car drivers failing to indicate their intention properly at junctions/roundabouts, and failing to use head lights at times of reduced visibility (the see and be seen principal). Capital punishment, with the corpse being labelled and hung from the nearest tree/road sign/lamp post etc. You'd only need to "do" a couple and watch how careful the negligent would become......
Ok, so maybe that last bit is a little draconian ;-)
p.s. and I'd happily put my head above the parapet if I had somewhere to hide my kit and still make some hooch - or when I finally give up!
p.p.s. Oh and for those who like to moan about binge drinking, it may be more appropriate to look at the \"root causes\". The death of communities was mainly brought about by Thatcher and the tories, who also forced down wages (relatively speaking) so that both partners in a couple had to work i.e. the traditional bread winner (mostly the bloke) couldn\'t earn enough to support his family. The increased ease of divorce (stupid people who think marriage is some sort of Doris Day movie/film) and the bleeding heart liberals of \"New Labour\" and the Lib Dems who have steadily eroded \"authorities\" ability to do anything about discipline, and anything about modifying society to remedy any of the above issues..... {/politicalsoapboxbit}

[hoppinmad]

yeah, ok,

hoppin

[Opus 27]

Phantom.

I agree with every word, perhaps you should be the next Home Secretary.

For myself I shall continue to search for a way to achieve a result on this subject, we\'re suposed to be a democracy so we are entitled to a voice.
ps. As for indicators, is their use optional on BMW\'s?
Opus 27

[Phantom]

ps. As for indicators, is their use optional on BMW\'s?
Opus 27

No, it\'s down to the driver - my partner drives her BMW and accurate with her indications - so it\'s the tit behind the wheel.......