Brexit. In or out?

[Seagull]

I'm quite liking this poll lark so thought I'd add another, potentially controversial, poll. Hope it's allowed. Please delete with my apologies if it's not.

Britain voting to remain or leave the EU is a big event coming up. I was wondering what y'all thought about it in the Moonshiners community.

Also thought it could be interesting to get our overseas friends' opinion.

So a poll it is. Private if you just want to vote (I think) or public if you want to vote and comment.

So here goes.

I'm voting LEAVE.

[Capt-Cudellez]

My personal experience of the whole thing from up here in Scotland has been it's just not captured the popular imagination the same way as the indy ref did, I doubt the turnout will be anywhere near the 84%+ we saw for that.

I think the main thing for me even if you ignore all the arguments from both sides, and turn it into a popularity contest, who is on the brexit side, Farage, Boris, Gove, IDS, I'd rather shit a hedgehog than stand with any of those trumpets.

[Mash]

As an Englishman I want to leave
As a businessman I want to stay.

[GrunthosTheFlatulent]

I'm not a fan of Nigel and Doris, but then again I don't believe a single word Cameron says. As for Osborne, didn't he countersign a huge EU cheque which sent Transit production to Turkey at the loss of a thousand jobs in Southampton?

Heart says "leave", head isn't fully decided yet.

[Icefever]

When I first see this thread I thought "hold on thin ice here"....politics & religion??? two things to stay away from.. ...but it was nice to see a couple of votes....interesting.

I think a lot of folks have already made up their minds....all this jibber-jabber from both sides is a total waste of time & money..

Mrs Ice & myself are ready to vote now...bring it on..

[Phantom]

See, I'm happy with stuff as it is. In my work world (Brian knows etc) the EU has produced rules that while a bit of a pain to work out, have produced a previously unknown level of protection.

I'm not one of those who thinks "Britain is best", Union Flag shorts and all that. It's certainly not a bad place, but irrespective of what Farage, Gove and Hubris say, they have failed to offer any suggestions about what if might be like after Brexit. Nothing more than "it'll be good, honest"....... like a dodgy car salesman.

All the alternatives suggested are a worse deal than the EU.Plus whoever heard of an outsider of anything being taken notice of i.e. if you're not on the top table, you can't influence what is for dinner and how it's eaten.....

The first thing that occurred to me when this was announced/mooted a couple of years back, was for me to concur remain gives us the greatest protection from the more extreme elements of "the establishment". Currently, they know they can't push too hard/take the p1ss too much as the ECoJ, ECoHR, etc provide judicial oversight. Leaving removes that protection.

Sure, the brexiteers would try and change anything immediately, but with the top tier of protection gone, it'd be a no-brainer for them to change or remove other protections, yet maintaining the excessive anti-union legislation from the Thatcher years.

Economicly, we all can recall seeing negative stuff. Some Arab farts and follows through, which is seen as an excuse to up the oil price. Uncertainty affects all markets negatively, and all markets affect much of the stuff we rely on, savings, pensions, mortgage rates, food cost, credit cost/availability, etc etc.

Plus, as older people are more likely to vote and be more conservative in attitude, yet brexit would affect younger generations more, to vote to leave is more of a kick in the bollocks of the younger ones. It's no different from industry etc. The "baby boomers" had it best (house prices, free further education, etc) and they are the ones sitting on their fat pile saying leave........

Nope. I can see no upside to leaving whatsoever. I distrust the baby boomers with their WW2 xenophobia/arrogance.......

So I'm firmly in the remain camp.

[Phantom]

Oh, and if we're so wonderful, why is it that the scandiwegians are the ones that always come top of the various "how happy/quality of life" surveys ?

Cherry pick the best bits of others methods and ideas ? No. Sit around with the "British is best" arrogance while alluding to " that's alright for them, they're foreigners, WE don't do "it" like that as we're British and superior" type attitude.......

Well I've got news for the brexit numbskulls, Britain was only ever great, because of some chance industrial discoveries a couple of hundred years back, followed by imperial bullying by the Victorians. Then the right wing business owners proceeded to either milk it all dry or sell it to the foreigners, while sneering down their nose making snide remarks about working rights.

I will also add that just about all "rights" you have currently, you have BECAUSE of Europe. Though the last one you lost, well had taken away to be more accurate, was taken by Michael Howard MP (conservative, Folkestone). And that was the right to silence in a court of law, when being judged by a jury of your peers. You got that from Magna Carta in 1215, but had it taken by the Tories under Thatcher........

Make of that, what you will........

[GrunthosTheFlatulent]

Thank you Phantom.

I'm by no means sitting on a fat pile, but we are secure and the house is paid for.

For the sake of my kids (aged 19 and 23) that is precisely what I needed to read.

[Myles]

When we joined it was a trade deal which made sense.
Now it is about loss of nationality, loss of elected parliment and a European super state. Not even a united states of europe. Just a single country with a huge population.
I am not sure, and it worth reminding folks that there are other european states that are not in the EU.
Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Lichtenstein, Vatican City, Monaco and others.

[Seagull]

It's not just old people with loads of money and no mortgage that want to transfer control from Brussels back to London.

I still have many years left to pay on my mortgage and years to go before I get to retire. But I'm not going to submit to project fear and nor are many of my friends who are in the same position as me.

[hampk]

+1 Phantom

I couldn't agree more. Life may remain broadly the same after an exit - or it may take a downturn as export markets dry up and we have to start renegotiating European (and conceivably American) trade agreements from scratch.

Either way it's going to be an interesting referendum!

[Seagull]

Quick question to the Remainers:

I assume you wouldn't consider joining the single currency experiment now we have the benefit of hindsight. Or would you?

Assuming the answer is no, would you HONESTLY have voted to join at the start of the experiment had you been given the chance or did you foresee the problems?

[hampk]

In my mind, single currency shared among many participants who largely have the capability to manage their own economic affairs (eg tax, wages etc) ie the European way, doesn't work - the EU has proven that.

Single currency shared among many participants who are largely governed centrally and have limited capability to manage their own economic affairs (eg loca sales tax) broadly works - the USA has proven that.

Would I vote to join the Euro? No, not without a more US-like political arrangement which let's face it is never going to happen. Would I have all those years ago? I was too young then to vote, so not really relevant!

I still think there are many advantages to remaining in, and few to coming out of the EU itself.

[Mash]

For the leavers. Of you pissed your neighbour off would you expect a good the following week if you bought his car?

[Phantom]

I'm happy to be honest about all this.....

Being (always having been) a centre left person (despite my locality, origins etc), having some knowledge about employment and working rights etc I do find myself in a strange place.

When this first came up, I was watching the people and personalities. I don't like Farage, he displays too many double standards. All that pint and cig stuff is a con. He comes across like Murdoch senior i.e. trying to seem like "working man's friend" etc (with Murdoch, it's trying to con us with his populist rag, the Sun). But IMO, both are working to a different agenda.

Then along comes Gove and Hubris, Gove is like Hunt, they're manipulative political bullies. No dealings or negotiations, just "do what I say, not do as I do".

Hubris Johnson seems a bit like Trump, except at least he's got some elected office experience. I believe he's a clever man but with different agenda and an eye on "the top job" he's trying his hand at populist xenophobia using the wartime attitudes we have often inherited from our parents (and are often too stupid to recognise it).

Yes there maybe some immigration issues, but I don't believe it's the issue they've made it up to be. As with anything, if it increases/gets bigger, then it usually cost more to run/manage, not less.

But equally, any issues are for negotiation, not panic and burying our heads in the sand. Doing the latter is what the older generation seem to want by voting out, yet it's them who won't need to worry to correct the error of brexit, they'll be dead. It's the younger ones who need to think and vote remain.

It's still a while before I'd be in a position to retire etc, so why it worries me that there'll be yet another concern to manage before I can put my feet up eventually.

The loss of working rights and other protections really is a scary prospect. Especially if it leaves the out campaign people in charge (most of whom, I wouldn't piss on, if they were on fire).........