tpw using champagne yeast, slow to ferment can i speed it up

[Jonc26uk]

hi ppl

have stated a tpw using 5grams of champagne yeast instead of bakers yeast, i used 6kg of sugar hoping to get a higher alcohol yeld. sg started at 1086 and after 9 days is only down to 1065!! just wondering can i do anything to help it along as in chuck some extra yeast in? different yeast maybe? i know champagne yeast takes longer to brew out but it seems very slow. the temp has been at a consistant 25oc all the time aswell.

thanks

[chill]

The ph may have crashed. Try adding 3 Tbsp of baking soda. Beware: it will foam like mad! Not good for almost full containers. If that starts it back up again, you will likely have to do it every 2-3 days.

Chuck

[Uber]

As it happens, I'm in the same predicament!
I had some EC-118 lying around that I decided to use with my TPW this time around.

Its definitely fermenting, but a lot slower than the cheap allinsons I normally use.

I do have some baking soda, yeast nutrients and allsorts, but I'm going to wait it out and see happens..

[Jonc26uk]

cheers chill, it hasnt stopped fermenting i dont think just seems to be doing it slow,which is what uber seems to have found aswell. where should the ph be?

[Jonc26uk]

also what would happen if i threw some bakers yeast in now?

[Almanac]

I use EC1118 quite regularly. In a 25lt wash a single sachet of this yeast is just not enough. Also, did you make a starter? I know the producers say to simply rehydrate the yeast but I found it works best if you make a starter using a little DME.

I use 500ml of water at 35oC in a jar with a screw cap to which I add 2tsp of DME and shake vigorously to aerate. Next, with the liquid temp at 30oC, add two sachets of EC1118 put the lid on and keep the jar warm for at least two hours. In this time the volume of yeast will double giving you a good healthy colony which will ferment the wash completely without stressing the yeast AND if you do it right you can reuse the yeast cake over and over.

The pH should be around 5.5 starting off but this will become more acidic as the wash ferments. However, if the pH gets down to 3.5 the wash will stall and bicarbonate will be needed to get it restarted but I wouldn't just toss in the bicarbonate without checking the pH first.

I suspect the reason your ferment is so slow is because the yeast is too weak. I'd recommend making a new starter and when it's ready made sure the temp of the wash and starter are matched before pitching. It can also help to add about 200ml of wash from the fermenter to the yeast starter 1 hour before pitching to get the yeast cells used to the environment they're about to be launched into. Anything to avoid shocking or stressing the yeast cells - they are quite sensitive.

AM

[Jonc26uk]

thanks am

i did wonder if 5grams would be enough, after using 90grams of bakers yeast a wash it doesnt seem much. forgive my ignorance and i have tried searching for this answer before asking you,but what is dme?

[chill]

DME is dry malt extract. A bit of sugar can work too to feed the yeast. I usually just use the one packet. Adding more would help in getting it started faster, but I doubt that not enough yeast cells is your problem now. I would expect there to be a sizeable colony now.

EC-1118 is notoriously slow and my sugar washes always seem to get to a ph of around 3 requiring me to bring it back up to get the ferment going again.

I am going to start using a ph buffer as described in
http://forum.moderndistiller.com/viewto ... f=7&t=1109

Chuck

[Almanac]

Chuck, I'm surprised at you giving such ambiguous advice!

Sugar is not a good idea for a yeast starter as it will stress the yeast.

"EC1118 is notoriously slow"??? Not so! The problem with this yeast is usually too small a colony.

The Physics of fermentation may work differently in the Southern Hemisphere but I doubt it really!

Healthy yeast colony + food(nutrients) + sugar = happy fermentation = good alcohol

AM

[chill]

Hi Aidan,

No, sugar won't stress the yeast but the solution will be a bit nutrient deficient. A tiny pinch of DAP or a Tbsp of flour will address that. DME is recommended for yeast starters when fermenting beers as it gets the yeast used to fermenting complex sugars. Using sugar to make a starter for beer will result in less effective yeast. But as we are fermenting sugar, it is fine to use it as a source of energy when making a starter. I would use something else if I was going to pitch it into an all grain or partial grain wash.

From what I have read, can't find the reference now, EC-1118 is good for fermenting to higher levels of alcohol but is not fast relative to many other yeasts. That has certainly been my experience with it.

Chuck

[chill]

Interesting reading on growing yeast
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 39&t=33057

EC-1118 Slowness from more knowledgeable people than me:
http://forum.moderndistiller.com/viewto ... f=57&t=839

Chuck

[Almanac]

Unfortunately, these days, too many distillers chase 'fast' fermentations. I do not consider 7-10 days to be 'slow' and if the yeast has been started properly, as I described, it will ferment out to a dry finish.

I have noted that many contributors to MD and HD seem to expect their ferments to finish in 3-4 days with high teen percentage of alcohol with no off tastes or other ill effects. I prefer to work on the basis of "Less Haste, More Taste".

The purpose of the small amount of DME, in the starter I described, is to provide the cells with enough food to get them reproducing but not enough to make them produce much alcohol. As one of the links you provided says, if the sugar content is too high the yeast will produce alcohol until it gets the sugar level down below 9g per Lt. If you use DME, instead of processed white sugar, this concentration can be up to 12g per Lt. The starter should prompt a little alcohol production so that new cells are exposed to that environment prior to pitching.

You should never put nutrients, other than the DME or a little sugar, in a yeast starter.

I think many people confuse the term, 'yeast starter' and 'yeast bomb'. (Buccaneer Bob made this very error in the link you provided) A yeast bomb has no live yeast cells but plenty of nutrients, vitamins, boiled yeast and other ingredients that will promote yeast health during the ferment. A yeast 'starter' has billions of live yeast cells but no nutrients.

It should also be remembered that EC1118 is a Champagne yeast. It does what it is designed to do very well, given the right conditions. What we try to get it to do for us is the equivalent of trying make a gourmet salmon mousse from minced beef and onions.

A little patience will bring rewards.

AM

[googe]

I've never had a prob with bakers yeast.

[Almanac]

+1 on the Bakers Yeast - good stuff. I regularly use bakers yeast to make starters for a wash.

AM

[Phantom]

Well I do suspect that none of you are quite hitting the nail on the head here.

EC-1118 is generally a fast fermenter........

When properly nourished.......

Fermenting sugar wash is very similar to meads. They are very deficient in nutrients that are generally found in grape pulp/juice (and other whole fruit juices).

So called "distillers" yeasts are closer to bread yeasts than wine yeasts and like bread yeasts are a bit more tolerant of mis-use. Wine yeast will ferment quickly if the must/wort etc is balanced correctly. You need to understand the YAN (yeast assimilated nitrogen) requirement for the yeast type, plus the other non-nitrogen elements like niacin, folic compounds, etc. So generally its easiest if you know the YAN provided by a combined type nutrient and not just DAP. The best, becausr of the published data, is likely FermaidK from Lallemand, but they also do a rehydration nutrient called GoFerm, which is specifically for rehydration of dry yeast and is formulated with little to no DAP, as its been found to be injurious to yeast development in the earliest stages of development.

Now a 5g lalvin pack is enough for 5 gallons (probably US/19litres and less likely Imperial/22.5litres). Yet there's also been a few studies why liquid yeast packs from the likes of wyeast are better for flavour despite their much lower cell counts compared to a dry yeast. Whether that's correct I don't know, but the exta 20 to 25 % volume of 25 lites over 5 US gallons should cause too much issue.

With TPW, tomato paste does not provide anywhere near enough nutrition on its own. Some combined nutrient and extra DAP is needed.

Because of the shite info about most nutrients available for yeasts, like tronozymol or nutrivit or any other brands, not just pure DAP or like ritchies which has just two inorganic nitrogen elements (looks like sugar crystals), its probably easiest just to stick to the suggested dosages, which tends to be 1 teaspoon per gallon. Plus with sugar turbos generally being tolerant to 14% ABV or thereabouts, the likes of EC-1118, DV10 and Uvaferm 43 will take a normal(ish) gravity batch bone dry if properly nourished - though I understand the Uvafer43 needs lower temps for ferment like 70F/21C so there's no off flavours, though even if there was, whether they'd get out the still is a different question........

As for pH monitoring, if you read up from the mead world, as honey musts are likely the closest to sugar wash, pH swings are well understood. Especially with traditionals i.e. honey, water, yeast and nutrients. They have little pH buffering ability compared to batches with fruit ingredients.

The sweet spot for the yeast is the mid 3.x pH level and they only generally stick when fermenting if the pH dips below 3.0 so it can be handy to have some potassium carbonate pH adjuster handy (potassium bicarbonate is also good, calcium carbonate/bicarbonate also works but can leave a chalky or powdery taste in a brew and aren't considered as effective - again whether than off flavour would make it through a still is another Q).

Can't think of anything else ATM, but if I do I'll post it......