Back to Basics

[Robbo79]

Ok thanks for all the info guys, I will keep with it!

[Almanac]

I started this thread because of problems I had been experiencing with my ferments and had decided to go back to basics, as the heading suggests.

Since re-starting at the beginning I have tweaked the basic recipe and the results are starting to pay off. My basic sugar wash recipe for a 25lt batch now uses a pH buffer made up of 100g of Citric Acid and 115g of Sodium Bicarbonate, 1 Tsp of Young's Yeast Nutrient on each of the first three days of fermentation.

The modification of the buffer resulted from two washes finishing at pH4.3 which I felt was too low. The extra 15g of Sodium Bicarb has resulted in subsequent washes finishing at pH 4.8 which is more satisfactory.

I've just taken delivery of a new buffer material called Trisodium Citrate which I'm hoping will perform even better than the one I'm using at the moment. It will certainly be easier to store as it doesn't need mixing and doesn't turn into a rock in storage.

I post results of using this new buffer as they come to hand

AM

[chill]

Have you tried adding any epsom salts? That may be an interesting experiment. I have read that they yeast likes a bit of whatever is in it.

[Almanac]

My 'Back to Basics' washes are now well on track.

Today I pitched a fourth generation wash with the original Allinsons yeast cake being supplemented with the addition of a 30g yeast starter with each re-start.

The third generation ferment had an OG of 1.086 and ended at 0.986

This latest wash was off and blowing the airlock within 15 minutes and after an hour was running like a train.

I haven't used the new buffer yet as I'm still trying to work out how much is needed in a 27lt wash. Anyone any experience using Trisodium Citrate?

AM

[chill]

I've been having no end of troubles lately, very slow starts, slow, long ferments. I can't trace it down to any one thing. The water has smelled strongly of chlorine lately, so I added a single Camden tablet when I started a wash yesterday. Now 24 hours later it is barely going.

Chuck

[Almanac]

I had a chlorine problem a couple of years back and only solved it by installing an inline carbon filter to remove the chlorine. Once I did that the ferments went fine.

AM

[chill]

I am back to my bad yeast theory now. I thought I had gotten better yeast, but now I think I was wrong. Two days into this ferment and you could still see the little dots of the dried yeast floating in the clear wash. Then I added baker's yeast. Four hours later I have a 2 inch head on the wash! I have not been using bread yeast under the assumption that it would not handle the alcohol produced by 5Kg of sugar in 24L of water and that clearing was a problem. Aidan, comments on that?

Chuck

[YHB]

I now only ever use baking yeast it works for me.

My standard is 5 kg of sugar for 23 litres of wash.

I use 60g (half a tin) of Allinsons yeast which amounts to £0.60 per wash.

Cereal Washes take 8 or 9 days.
TPW takes 11 days.

I do not use any additional nutrients.

Due to a brain fart I have on two occasions used 6 kg of sugar in a TPW for the same sized wash and it fermented dry without any adverse effects.

I generally have my fermenter set at 25 deg C, but due to the unusually hot weather my last batch of cornflakes was around 30 deg C for the entire ferment.

Clearing, mine have never got to a point that I would call crystal clear, but I put that down to my impatience as I only every allow one day two at the most before I run it.

The bakers yeast seems very tolerant of my variable methods.

[Almanac]

Bakers yeast works well for me too and I've been surprised about how well it has done in multi generation washes.

One thing I've recently found helps a lot with all washes in to make a yeast starter where you grow the yeast colony before pitching. This is not the same as re-hydrating a dry yeast.

I make my starters by boiling 2lt of water with a half tsp of Citric acid and 8oz of sugar. Dissolve the sugar and simmer the liquid for 15 minutes. Next, quickly cool the mix, I place the pot in an ice water bath, and whisk with a hand whisk to add air to the liquid. When the liquid temp drops below 30oC pour the liquid into a 3lt jar and add your dried yeast and stir. Leave in a warm place for 18-24 hours in which time the yeast will grow to provide a healthy colony with which to inoculate your wash. This method also negates the need for a lag phase in the wash so the yeast will get right down to the business of making alcohol.

I run 6kg of sugar with a bread yeast starter and now, with the pH problem sorted, my ferments are finishing dry.

I found it important to wait a few days after the ferment is finished before racking the wash off into a clean bucket, leaving the yeast cake behind. If the wash is degassed a couple of times it will clear if the temp is low enough. in recent weeks, because of the hot weather, I've been using a little Sparkolloid but any finings will do the job really, Bentonite is good too if used properly.

For me, learning about using a pH buffer has been the biggest lesson that has produced the most useful results for me in recent times. It really did sort out 90% of the problems I was experiencing with washes.

AM

[chill]

Three days later it is down to 1.015, this bread yeast is impressive! I would not have guessed that. Well, no more need to shell out money for special wine yeast. I thank you gentlemen!

Aidan, why do you boil the water for your yeast starter?

Cheers!
Chuck

[Frank]

@Chuck
mate bread yeast is the go for TPW for sure...its quite pH and temp tolerant and works through the ferment quickly. One thing I have noticed though is the subtle 'bread-like' taste/smell in the finished spirit. This isnt a major issue (for instance, its sure beats the smell of a turbo) but, for a good neutral, IMHO you'll need to use carbon or a still that produces upwards of 90%abv.
I'd also suggest that bread yeast is less than ideal for, say, a whisky wash...for the same reason.

@Aidan, approx. how much yeast do you use in your 'yeast starter' recipe, pleaase?

[Almanac]

@Chuck: in making my yeast starter I boil the water sugar and citric acid mix to invert the sugar making it more readily digestible to the yeast cells. I then aerate the liquid before adding the yeast. The theory being (not mine) that this makes it easier for the yeast to consume the sugar and added oxygen then breed & multiply in the starter I got this from a YouTube video on making yeast starters and I have to say the yeast is very active during this breeding cycle.

Another advantage to making a yeast starter is that you don't need to worry about aerating the wash. Adding air to the wash is meant to get the yeast to breed and multiply before starting to produce alcohol - what's known as the Lag Phase. By making a yeast starter you won't need your yeast to breed in the wash because you've already taken care of that by making the starter so your wash will start to ferment and bubble straight away.

@ Frank: I use 60g of bread yeast in my initial starter and I can tell you with absolute certainty that my pot stilled spirit does not have any trace of bread yeast smell or taste and SWMBO would be very quick to tell me if there was any kind of taste in her Vodka

In my experience the only reason for a yeast or bready taste or smell in the final spirit is if you didn't get the wash cleared of yeast cells before stripping. There's nothing worse than the smell or taste of burnt yeast, no matter how little gets burnt in the boiler.

AM

[Almanac]

I took the plunge in using Sodium Citrate as my pH buffer with a wash I pitched the other night.

The wash was made up with 6kg of sugar, 2 Vitamin B capsules, 1 tin of Tomato Purée, 1 tsp of Youngs Yeast Nutrient and 100g of Sodium Citrate(SC).

After adding the SC the wash pH registered at 7.2, a little high but I decided to pitch it anyway. I had made a yeast starter the night before using a Champagne Yeast that had been lurking in my fridge. he yeast proved viable and the starter was extremely vigorous.

Once pitched, the wash took off and has been bubbling away at a fair clip, so the high pH doesn't seem to have had any adverse effect on the yeast - so far

I probably could have started with a smaller amount of SC and added more if the pH didn't stay stable but I think that sort of see-saw effect with the pH only stresses the yeast. Having said that, I think with the next wash I will use 75g and see what effect that will have.

AM

[Almanac]

Ignore what I posted about needing to use less Sodium Citrate.

After day three the wash pH had dropped to 3.8, clearly not working as I had hoped.

I'm obviously missing something here and I think the Sodium Citrate needs something added to make it effective but I've no idea what

Anybody got any ideas?

AM

[YHB]

.

My recipe is definitely basic.

tomato puree
sugar
water
yeast

I do not own a PH tester so PH has never been a problem and therefore I do not need a PH buffer. Maybe if I bought a test kit I too would have problems

Have you ever tasted a vitamin B capsule? Tasted not swallowed. Mine tasted bloody disgusting and I do not want to put anything as revolting as that in my wash so I flushed them down the toilet.

Back to Basics