Sacrificial Runs

[Benoit]

I have a few questions on this topic if anyone can help? Here it goes!

Is one enough?
Could they be better by using a stronger acid cleaner instead?
If the answer to that is no then what ferment recipe do you suggest? (Cheap / fast)
What's the bare minimum to run, through say a 25ltr pot still?
Did any of you just buy some cheap wine to run?

I understand that the first run through is good practice for the real thing but if on the off chance I fluke everything perfectly well I know I'll be really annoyed with having to feed it to the drain! I'm also getting some conflict between the safety conscious & tight fisted aspects of my personality!
Thanks in advance

Benoit

[Phantom]

Meh! I'd say just run some vinegar/water mix through it (a gallon of white vinegar and 3gallons water).

Once it's finished, then give it a blast with a hot water pressure washer.........

edit - to clarify that, run the still with the vinegar/water mix

[Frank]

+1 Phantom:
mix white vinegar/water (3:1.....maybe even 5:1 iffen its a 25l boiler) and you can test 'everything' whilst cleaning it at the same time! (afterall, leaks and blockages are also worth trial running)....then chuck it all out mate, wash/rinse the stillgear well and enjoy!

[Benoit]

Thanks gents! I'll add 5 litres of white vinegar to the list with the golden syrup & brown sugar next time I'm in the cash & carry!

Benoit

[Myles]

Water / vinegar is fine but if there is home built copper involved you ALSO need to do a cleaning run with alcohol. This will take out any remaining solvent soluble flux residues.

Now the topic was called "Sacrificial Runs" and this is not about cleaning. Shiny new copper leaves a bad taste in the product. A sacrificial run helps to build up a patina layer on the clean copper. This preserves the copper whilst allowing it to do all the good things it does.

It may take 1 or more sacrificial runs to loose the metallic taste (dependent on how much new copper is in the vapour path) and to build up that beneficial internal patina.

Just don't make the mistake of regular deep cleaning with strong acid or you just destroy the patina. The only time to do the deep clean is after modifications to the still when there is flux residue to get rid of.

Most cleaning is fine with water or a weak acid (citric or backset) if you have mineral deposits that need to be removed.

[Easydrinker]

I had picked up on the seeming confusion here between cleaning and sacrificial runs.
Myles went on to state something that I was previously unaware of,it surprised me,and has given food for thought,mainly along the lines of how dirty is too dirty....?
I have always figured that if I could scrape residue from my tall copper column with a finger then it was dirty.
My long copper condenser surprises me,from what I can see of its innards,it often appears in need of a clean,but doesn't get one,just a wash out with water.
Just occasionally I manage to fall asleep on a strip run and find the distillate has bottomed out at a really low %. And the distillate is then running with a blue,assumed CuSO4,tinge.
Maybe this is an inherent form of cleaning,as the condenser continues to produce mightily clean tasting Hearts.
It is working for me,and I am happy.Full understanding would make me happier.

Robert.

[Myles]

Reflux columns, expecially packed ones, tend to get quite gunky. Expecially at the end of the run when the packing gets quite contaminated with tailsy residue.

I used to worry about this until a member on another forum told me something. He keeps a keg boiler that he only uses with the packed column and except for a puke scenario does not worry too much about cleaning the column.

During stabilisation any heads residues get cleaned out and washed back into the boiler. I suspect if you broke down your column in the middle of a run it would be clean.

With my packed column i do like to run clean steam through it at the end of a run and i have copper mesh below the packing support that i do take out to acid wash now and then. Thats about it.

If its not been used for some time i might do a cleaning run. When i take mine out of storage it will get a deep clean. After that i will back flush the column with hot backset into the boiler at the end of each run and probably run clean steam through it every 5 runs.

[Benoit]

Thanks for the info myles, I didn't realise they weren't the same thing!
How much wash would you recommend to run for the different tasks? Seems like building up this layer may take more alcohol contact than a cleaning run.
Most of my set up will be stainless, it's the connecting pipe work & condenser that will be copper...all tips great fully received

Benoit

[Myles]

You're not likely to have much of a problem. It really only impacts the guys that build their own copper columns. In that scenario you do a deep clean to remove flux and solder residues.

Often this is done by immersing the column or completely filling it with an acid based cleaner.
In the process you strip all the copper surface back to a pristine new layer, and this leaves a nasty taste in your product.

1 or 2 runs is usually sufficient to oxidise the clean copper. It is still clean and shiny to look at but the oxide layer protects the copper surface. After it has oxidised you can't taste it, but it still does all the good things.

[Smiler]

Just been reading this thread with interest. Just building a column currently and knew I had to do a vinegar run or citric to clean but didn't realise I would need to do a sacraficial run also... but kinda makes sense. Obviously I don't want to ruin an expensive/time consuming mash i'm currently making. If I were to use citric what kind of ratio / % (weight/vol) would peeps suggest using - I have a 25L boiler. Would i need to do a full 25L sacraficial or can you get away with less? I would just run a sugar water mash through (2 stripping runs as don't expect you need to take cuts?!?) so expense isn't really an issue it's just good to know

[Smiler]

Been having a little more of a think about this. If the idea of a sacrificial run is to further clean and oxidize the copper couldn't you just load your sacraficial wash with Campden tablets just before distilling... i.e. 2 per gallon as you don't want to overdo the sulphating on the copper, just enough to tarnish the copper back to brown. Kills two birds with one stone possibly. Ok you have added gas in there but with boil enhancers and conditioner would this be a major problem? You could maybe do a 70% capacity run to avoid surge or puking - possibly less?!? Just thinking out loud, baring in mind I have never done a run before (Yet!) Does anyone have any thoughts on this I would be very interested to know?

[ant]

Bear in mind I know nothing, but copper will oxidise quite quickly from just lying around exposed to air. If I wanted to clean flux residues that the vinegar missed I would use cheap IPA cleaning alcohol and save it for reuse as cleaning alcohol. Obviously followed by a steam clean to remove any traces of IPA. That might be a stupid idea though so get some input from others if you think you might try it. You can't drink a glass of IPA but you do rub it into your skin so it's not entirely toxic in the way methanol is. A steam clean should leave you safe.

[Smiler]

Steam cleaning unfortunately is not an option for me, don't own one or know anyone with one Cost to buy one is greater than cost of a sacrificial run. Unless you can just boil water through lol... Don't see why not but may as well be an alcohol run. Yeah IPA you really wouldn't want to drink but as long as washed off would be no prob Ant

[Mr Four Square]

At the time I didn't have a lot of alcohol to spare for the sacrificial run so I just used diluted the little I had (3 litres @ 15%) and kept pouring what I collected back into the boiler. Cant see why that wouldn't work the same as a nice long run.

[packapoo]

Makes two of us.