Working with copper

[DorsetScott]

Ok, I'm going to ask one of those vague, general questions and hopefully the hive mind can help out a little.

I have never worked with copper, or any metals for that matter.
I'm interested in getting started, especially given the amount of things in this hobby that you can build yourself.

Can anyone offer any advise on where to start? What equipment would be needed etc?
I have limited space so it may even be a non-starter.

There is a possibility that I might start looking at building something like the Vino Tinto pot head.
This might be because the bottom fell out of my T500 alembic condensor box yesterday and there is now a massive dent and bend in it which might stop it functioning properly. If so, I'd like to try building something for myself rather than buying another one.

I'm not trying to run before I can walk, not thinking I can necessarily build one with no experience straight away, but it's something to aim towards.

[Icefever]

It's not hard, once you can solder you're on your way and there are loads of videos on getting started. You'll need a gas torch, lead-free solder, flux and whatever fittings to make the pothead, start off by soldering some scrap bits, I was told maybe 60 years back to clean the fittings and don't hold the piece you are soldering as the grease off your hands will work against you.

Clean, add flux, join the fittings, apply heat, there are loads of tricks that you will pick up, trying soldering a T piece .... you'll see what I mean.

Ice.

[Mash]

Really easy to work with. The trick with soldering is wire wool to clean the joint. The right temp (buy a good gas torch not the cheapist).
Buy solder and flux that match and specifically for copper tube.

... And practise on some scrap.

[DorsetScott]

Ok, so gas torch, solder and flux and some scrap to practise with is my starting point. Thanks both

Any recommendations of where to buy from?

[Mash]

There is a tube supplier that Ice will remember the name of. I would see if they do solder and flux too.

As for the torch I will have a look....

[Mash]

This is the professional choice..
https://plumbingsuppliesdirect.co.uk/ro ... as-bottle/

Amazon do something very similar @ 1/2 the price...

MAPP Propane Torch with 3 Nozzles https://amzn.eu/d/4KNfWGY

There are cheaper ones, I have some, but I inherited a rothenburger (father was a plumbist) and they do.. Really.. make a difference.

[Icefever]

There is a tube supplier that Ice will remember the name of. I would see if they do solder and flux too.

https://www.jtmplumbing.co.uk/pipe-fitt ... -54mm-c198

They also do lead-free & flux.

I've used these for a long time, but be careful both Toolstation & Screwfix have good prices...you can collect and save on P&P

Ice.

[DorsetScott]

Really appreciate the guidance, thanks guys.

[phantom]

Only thing I can think of that needs some consideration, is that some columns can be quite complicated, with lots of joints/sections close together.

Seems that's when you need to upgrade the soldering in some (many?) cases, to silver solder some joints so they don't all fall apart once done. Only real difference is that you need to make sure how hot the torch can get to, as silver needs more heat than tin based plumbers lead free.

As far as I've managed to find out, the rods and flux from Johnson -Mathey are the business. Strong copper to copper joints and it can also be used to fix stainless flanges for tri-clamps etc.

But either way, straight copper to copper jointing is straightforward (must be if I can do it - and yes, I ran all the new piping round our gaff for new or just moved radiators).....

[myles]

The thing that has not been mentioned yet is joint geometry.

Soldering is a low temperature process. For it to work it depends on the use of an overlap joint. One bit of tube is inside another bit of tube, and in general the length of the overlap is 10x the thickness of the wall of the copper tube.
In reality the solder just fills the gap between the two tubes - by capillary action - which is why the gap between the two tubes has certain limitations.

If the overlap is less, then you need to switch to brazing or silver soldering. This uses a different type of solder and the joint is much stronger - to compensate for the lack of overlap. The melting point is higher so you need a different type of heating equipment.

Not a hotter flame - the temperature can be the same - but a bigger flame - to put in a bigger quantity of heat.

The joint looses heat at the same time as you are putting heat in. If you want the whole joint to get to a hotter temperature, you need to put in more heat. Not hotter heat - if that makes sense. It did when I was thinking it!!!

Brazing is only slightly different to soldering. Model steam boilers are brazed not soldered, as are air conditioning units. For different reasons.

Boilers are brazed to provide strong structural joints. Air conditioning is brazed because solder joints become brittle and crack at low temperatures.

[Mash]

Myles. That has filed a gap in my thinking. Yes it is indeed more heat not a greater temperature. Adding solder has a cooling effect. Practised hands warm the solder stick beside the flame rather than just quickly pike it in.

[Mash]

Only thing I can think of that needs some consideration, is that some columns can be quite complicated, with lots of joints/sections close together.

I read that and though you were going somewhere else.

Sometimes you really need to work out the soldering order and in some tight cases cool the already made joints.

Ps. They MUST BE dry. Water will not "dry up and be okay"

[Mash]

viewtopic.php?t=58

Bumped. If anyone wants the plans again.

17 & 13 will be tricky (not hard). Do big joints first. Big joints take longer. So when you come the do the smaller (faster) close connections, the larger is less likely to be effected.

Get some practise in you will be fine.

Bricks come in handy for laying stuff out.

You might also want to think which way any dribbles will run away (we all get handed when it just needs a 'wee dab'). Do it on bricks, laid flat and all you are left with is a drip bead. No a ugly run 2 inches down the pipe

[buffalobob]

Scott, copper to copper isn't hard to do with a bit of practice. It's the stainless ferrules to copper that can be a bit of a bar steward to get right. When you get them they usually have a light coat of oil on em which can bugger things up. I clean em up and use some fine sand paper on the area to be soldered. Then I 'tin' them. Tinning is covering with a thin layer of solder. I tin all parts to be soldered, it makes life so much easier.

16608561905574317449903312576717.jpg

This is the soldering iron I use for attaching ferrules to copper. Its basically a 10mm copper bar that's heated by gas. I warm the parts to be soldered with a gastorch, ferrule first, then solder both together working the solder round with my soldering iron, applying more solder as you work your way around.

[Jennysgin]

I was given the tip about solder ring couplers and tees. These have solder already in them and make the job much less blobby for the beginner than trying to do it yourself with the solder!
My patio still has some lovely silver spots on it

[Mash]

Good shout Jenny

"Yorkshire" fittings if your want to search for them... Usually a few pence dearer. As soon as you see the solder bead you are finished.

[Icefever]

@ Scott....have you had a go yet??? I thought about you this morning as I've ordered some fittings off JTM, I want to make a shorter Liebig ..it'll help fitting in the confined space I have in the garage.

Ice.

[Mash]

Price of copper, might be cheaper to extend the garage.

[DorsetScott]

@ Scott....have you had a go yet??? I thought about you this morning as I've ordered some fittings off JTM, I want to make a shorter Liebig ..it'll help fitting in the confined space I have in the garage.

Ice.

lol, not yet. I will definitely be having a go, but I'm on holiday next week and haven't bought thte stuff yet, will be a little while before I pull the trigger. I'll report back when I do with some exciting photos!

[Icefever]

Price of copper, might be cheaper to extend the garage.

I have most of what I want for the job, off-cuts & some fittings, I only needed a couple of reducers, 4 items in all,... ordered today I've had an email with tomorrow the delivery date...good old JTM.

Scott..I'll report back when I do with some exciting photos!

I'll hold you to that..


Ice.

[buffalobob]

+1 with you about JTM Icefever, can't recommend them enough. Just bitten the bullet and taken delivery of 1.5 m of 76mm. Just over 80 sheets including delivery. Long wait now for ferrules, reducers and triclamps on a slow boat from China.

[Icefever]

+1 with you about JTM Icefever, can't recommend them enough. Just bitten the bullet and taken delivery of 1.5 m of 76mm. Just over 80 sheets including delivery. Long wait now for ferrules, reducers and triclamps on a slow boat from China.

Well done dude ...so you're going for a 3" column?? are we going modular?? pot or reflux??...


Ice.

[buffalobob]

Yep, modular. I was very happy with what I was getting out of my 2 inch reflux column but not too happy with the take off rate. Reflux runs with my 2 incher were starting to get very tedious

[Icefever]

Reflux runs with my 2 incher were starting to get very tedious

That was the main reason I went from 2" to 3" as well...time.

Ice.