Rewiring Brewzilla

[DorsetScott]

Thought I'd create a new topic as I don't want to detract from the randomness of the previous thread with a serious conversation

Can you access the elements. If so you could easily rewire them.

Searching the Web, seems to show a plate on the bottom - very similar to how most burcos are built.

Whip that off, install a separate socket, & Roberts your mother's brother?

This is the fella.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 2420302682

I lost this post the first time around so retyped it all again but I apologise if I forgot some diplomacy!

Please don't take offence Mash, I am not sure I would do that for two reasons:
Firstly, I doubt that plug and socket combination are up to running 2.4kw for extended periods. The limited contact area and the poor provision for wiring them up risk them overheating. If you want that style of plug and socket google 'iec hot sockets' for more suitable construction. I use the round blue 'caravan' 16A plugs and sockets with immersion heater cable to wire them up. Admittedly bulkier, but not much more expensive and better designed to connect the wires.
Secondly, unless the original controller is disconnected from the elements, if the original controller is ever used, the exposed pins on the modified plug would become live. I guess you intended that they were removed, that however stops the original temperature controller mode functioning.

If, as I suspect, the original controller uses mechanical relays there is an alternative solution. Wire in one of those cheap chinese phase angle controllers between the original controller and the 1900w element. At full power on the old controller, you will be able to adjust from 500w to 2.4kw and on the 1900w setting from zero to 1900w. It won't upset the original function of the controller if you set the phase angle control to 100%, in fact you could have better temperature control with less overshoot with finer control of the heating power.
DorsetScott, If you think this mod would be of value I, as others on here no doubt, would be very happy to walk you thru the upgrade.
The type of controller you will be looking for is one that can be wired either way around, input or output to the mains and the heater on the other connection. As the chinese always overstate the capabilities of their products go for a 4kw one.
One of the guys on here did something similar a couple of months back and put it in a nice box with a power meter. If it were me I would fit it in the bottom of your boiler (you don't need the power meter). My estimation of the work involved would be to drill a hole for the control knob to fit thru and connect up 3 wires inside the boiler.

Zio Roberto!

I am up for a mod, not particularly electrically minded but confident enough following instructions as I have done many times.
I'd much rather mod this unit than have 2 boilers and the cost saving is nice too!

I took the base off yesterday for a quick gander, there's a lot of insulation which I'd have to pull out so I left it there atm as it was late. I'll try to get it off tonight and a decent picture, but I believe it is just the control board, and then 2 switches, 2 elements, pump and thermometer.

[Mash]

I'd much rather mod this unit than have 2 boilers and the cost saving is nice too!

That was my thinking.
I don't think it will be a complex mod. I am expecting tags on the Element terminals...so There might be a chance of doing this solder free. A picture paints 1000 words, so they say - get snapping. Thinking it would be good to see a close-up of the control box, a close-up of the elements and a general overall pic.

Probably need to think about some form of isolation, so that the controller doesn't have an unexpected live feed.

[Windoe]

Hi DorsetScott, Can you take some photos of the switches on the outside. If you can the wiring of the switches on the inside and any other wiring you can around the control board and elements. I have seen some photos from the manual and of a control board update that makes me think the power selection is from those switches and the control board may run the pump and the heating element as it contains two relays.
If we can fit a phase angle controller in series between the control board and the element you won’t need to isolate the controller as it will be the live feed. I will have a look on eBay and see if I can find a phase angle controller suitable to modify.

[Windoe]

E22525B2-0492-46BE-849F-5DC255AE37E5.png

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Someone on this site may be able to dig up a better option than these. eBay part no 401965401066
These are screen shots of something that look suitable. Both from the same seller and a few pounds more than I thought in cost At around £17. They are 3 terminal devices so wiring is going to be easy, remove the existing wire from the electrically ‘hot’ end of the 1900w element and connect it to ‘in’ put a heat resistant wire from ‘out‘ to the ‘hot’ end of the element. Connect a heat resistant wire from the ‘cold’ end of the element to common. It should then work as described in my earlier post.

There appears to be no earth to the metalwork, that will need correcting to make it safer.

Mechanical arrangements may be a little more difficult. If you want the ‘box’ to be in the base of the boiler there needs to be space for the silver heat sink where it can get some ‘air’ and thermally insulated from the heater. A close look at the photos on eBay lead me to believe that there is a tiny PCB with the components, Triac and connector on and a couple of wires run to the front to the pot(knob). If this is the case the pot can be relocated on the side of your boiler and the heatsink/pcb secured in the bottom on a fabricated bracket.
Otherwise if it can be turned on its side and still fit in the bottom you could just drill a hole for the pot shaft and use its securing nut to fix the whole thing in.

I hope that makes sense.

[Windoe]

Is this what your BrewZilla looks like inside?
https://www.robobrew.com.au/inside-the-robobrew/

[DorsetScott]

Hi guys, wow you lot are a wealth of knowledge, reckon this can happen!
Probably won't get the pics tonight between the kids and the wife, but I'm working from home tomorrow so should have a chance to do it on the sly.

Is this what your BrewZilla looks like inside?
https://www.robobrew.com.au/inside-the-robobrew/

I think that's one of the original versions windoe, looks like it's missing the pump and that will be the old board inside given the date of posting. The temp sensor in the middle and the elements are probably the same though.

[Windoe]

34303B8E-8242-455B-B621-1B72D3796454.png

Here is a picture I scraped from that site. The white thing in the middle is a thermal cut out, in case the unit is set working without water in it. Look very carefully under the ribbon cable on the left and you will see a fuzzy outline of a nut with a pair of black wires snaking towards it, that’s your temperature sensor. The blue wires on one end of the element is the neutral or cold end. The white white on the big element is the hot end of the 1900w element.
From what I have found online, the two relays on the control board run the two elements via the red rocker switches on the side. The pump is on an independent circuit, like my Klarstein.
If yours is similar to that photo the main issue is mounting the controller, hopefully inside the base.

[Mash]

To be absolutely safe, we need to work with a photo of the real thing. Colours, versions, build designs change. We need to be safe here guys.

DS can you post some pics of the real thing.

[Windoe]

Mash is spot on here, I am getting ahead of myself and should wait for the proper photos.

Another consideration came to me after posting last night. Although the boiler should be fine for stripping, a spirit run for low wines may need an additional mod. The pump is likely to be made of plastic, the hot low wines may degrade it when they leech down thru the pipe work (I know you won’t intend to use the pump during distilling). The simple solution is to fill the pump lines with plain water and use a silicone bung in the bottom of the boiler while distilling. If you have a plastic sight glass you may need to do the same with that.

[DorsetScott]

Few pictures, let me know if I need to get closer to anything

IMG_20200527_104843.jpg

IMG_20200527_104855.jpg

IMG_20200527_104907.jpg

IMG_20200527_105448.jpg

IMG_20200527_105509.jpg

[Mash]

Mash is spot on here, I am getting ahead of myself and should wait for the proper photos.

Please don't think I was having a pop - but we do have to consider people in the future will click through this topic see the first picture and guess the rest.

Another consideration came to me after posting last night. Although the boiler should be fine for stripping, a spirit run for low wines may need an additional mod. The pump is likely to be made of plastic, the hot low wines may degrade it when they leech down thru the pipe work (I know you won’t intend to use the pump during distilling). The simple solution is to fill the pump lines with plain water and use a silicone bung in the bottom of the boiler while distilling. If you have a plastic sight glass you may need to do the same with that.

I am just going to clarify this point [and can I promise I'm not on your case Windoe]
Absolutely agree a silicon bungs a brilliant idea. Fill it with water. Super. Do not bung the other end !!! . Otherwise, this bung will pass you will at some stage during the process on its mission to go into the upper atmosphere. Although the water will not boil, it will expand and pop, so you need to leave the other end open.

Now did somebody mention wiring

[Mash]

Is it me? I cannot not see the earth!

As I suspected, this will be quite a straightforward mod.
You will need:
1x C19 Panel Mount IEC Socket. If you don't fancy soldering Make sure it takes crimped fittings.
1x matching Cable.
If you have not got a crimp tool, get one with a selection box. It shouldn't cost you a fortune.
Crimp ring terminals would be professional for the elements.
Crimp Spade terminals for the socket


You also need a latching 2 pole 10a isolator switch. This will break the circuit between the existing live terminals to the controller.

And this is a very poncey guard which will make it look right grand ........
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toggle-Switc ... 1884855090

[Windoe]

Mash, I realise you were not on my case. These things are difficult to brainstorm in an open forum where everyone gets to see the steps to the finished solution. I will never take offence.

Is it me? I cannot not see the earth!

Mash, in the top photo you can see the 3 core mains wire entering from towards the top. I can see the brown and the blue just in the gap before they enter the white protective sleeving. That leaves the third wire in white sleeving snaking over the pump. In the second photo down you can see a fuzzy screw connection to the case behind the pump on the end of the white wires. I think that is the earth.

Last question Mash, why do you prefer a separate box and isolator as opposed to integrating the phase angle controller into the boiler and leaving it inline with the output of the original controller? It has advantages and disadvantages having it outside, I would just like to understand your logic.

[DorsetScott]

Good eye windoe, better picture of the earth

IMG_20200527_195653.jpg

I'm quite excited by all this, if not slightly nervous I'm going to potentially break my brewzilla

I'll wait for you guys to agree on the route as you both know way more than me and then I'll look at buying the bits.

Question re the bung, what is the reason I'd fill the pipes with water? The top of the pump tube has a ball lock which completely closes the tube, is the suggestion to then leave that open?

Really appreciate all the help already guys.

[Windoe]

From the photos, I have sketched out what I think the existing circuit is:

1F855315-78AC-4427-B02D-A8646343A4F7.jpeg

Sorry it is a bit rough. Interestingly it looks like the pump does not have a separate fuse. I cannot read the text clearly on what I think is the COM connection on the PCB but logically it has to be the neutral connection otherwise nothing would work!
Feel free to comment if you think I have made an error.

[Windoe]

Question re the bung, what is the reason I'd fill the pipes with water? The top of the pump tube has a ball lock which completely closes the tube, is the suggestion to then leave that open?

Yes, leave the ball lock open if you fit a bung in the bottom outlet of the boiler. As Mash has pointed out any fluid/gas in the pump line will expand with heat. This could eject the bung or cause a leak in the tubes if the system was completely sealed at both ends. I would suggest filling the lines with water to have something to dilute any alcohol that may slip past the bung if it was not a perfect seal or it came loose with heat. You should put a bit of water in the boiler to cover the element anyway. So fitting the bung after putting say an inch of water in the boiler would be the way to go. This is to protect the element if you boil all the alcohol away. I know low wines will have about 70% water already and your element is on the bottom. But it is just insurance.
You may decide in future to modify the plumbing on the boiler to get better use of the pump, if you do then the bung won’t be needed.

[Mash]

Last question Mash, why do you prefer a separate box and isolator as opposed to integrating the phase angle controller into the boiler and leaving it inline with the output of the original controller? It has advantages and disadvantages having it outside, I would just like to understand your logic

My mod was designed with the following rules.

New and simple install.
Straight onto the elements.
Use easy plug in components.
Mitigate any risk to the controller.
Easy to explain remotely.
Buy additional components for power control.

You could say it is agricultural
And I really appreciate your input/discussion/review.

PS. Good spot with the earth!
PPS. I agree com (common) is neutral

[Mash]

Question for Scott.

How handy/confident are you with wiring?

[DorsetScott]

Question for Scott.

How handy/confident are you with wiring?

I never shy away from a challenge but my electrickery experience is limited. I don't have the ability to solder atm, but frankly I'm going to have to buy an iron or a crimper by the sounds of it.

I wired up an STC1000 following instructions and using a chocolate box, I'm assuming in the grand scheme of things this is a similar level of complexity?

[Mash]

I wired up an STC1000 following instructions and using a chocolate box, I'm assuming in the grand scheme of things this is a similar level of complexity?

Spot on

[Windoe]

Mash, I would suggest using something like those phase angle controllers I pictured earlier. The existing power controller board has no active components (triacs) except relays. The brains are in the display board fed from the transformer on the main power board. Elsewhere I have seen the copper trace side of the PCB (v3.1 and v3) no surface mount components and live appears to just run thru the relay contacts to L1 and L2. So effectively the controller is an on/off switch to the element. Forcing it continuously on by setting it to boil will give a live feed to the elements via the two switches on the side. If we break the line to the 1900w element and slip in the phase angle controller, it will then be able to control the power to that element. It will interrupt the current flow but this will have no effect on the original controller as it is effectively a switch. Judicious operation of the two switches on the side along with adjusting the phase angle controller will give full range control of the boiler in ‘stilling’ mode. When wanting to use the boiler as designed - temperature mode. All that is required is to set the phase angle controller to 100% and operate the boiler as normal per its instruction book.
Unfortunately it would not be possible to just plug the boiler into a phase angle controller as Gaza showed on the previous incarnation of this thread because the transformer power supply for the ‘brains’ would complain, the 5v supply would fail at lower settings on the phase angle controller with unpredictable results. Also potentially due to the issue of inductance the transformer could overheat from the inrush current of an unfavourable phase angle selection on the controller. (It was a very nice looking controller Gaza linked to, I may get one for my George Forman grill)
Here is the ‘IF’ in my suggestion: if the controller selected could be physically installed in the base of the boiler, it needs to be located away from heat as best possible. It needs sufficient separation for electrical isolation and a spot on the outside where it could have the knob poke out of. Then all that will need to be done is to take the white wire off the 1900w element and put it on the ‘in’ terminal. Take a wire from the ‘out’ terminal and route it to the element where the wire was removed. Connect a wire from the blue end of the element to the com on the phase angle controller. Arrange an additional earth to the case of the phase angle controller. If one of those Phase angle controller designs above was selected The knob would be removed along with the nut holding the potentiometer and both screws on that face of the controller. 3 holes drilled in the side of the boiler to match the holes for the screws and the potentiometer. Offer up the controller to the holes, refit the nut, knob and two screws. The conversion would be complete. It sounds easy but the ‘prototype’ may be a little more trouble. If I could locate a similar phase angle controller with the pcb, triac, heatsink and connectors were connected to the potentiometer by ‘flying leads’ the physical aspects of the conversion would be far simpler.

I have a worry that if the controller was located outside the boiler there would be a requirement to fit a male IEC socket. If this was directly wired to the element it would become live when fed from the original controller when the boiler was used in temperature control mode. This is not acceptable, the only way to avoid this is with a double pole double throw isolation switch. Double pole, because we have no control over the house wiring and live could be swapped with neutral. So isolating what we think is live cannot be guaranteed if we don’t isolate neutral as well. The isolation switch brings with it another issue in that these phase angle controllers ‘like’ to be connected to the load when on. If the isolation switch was in the wrong position the load would be disconnected and then cause the phase angle controller to malfunction. Putting the controller outside the boiler will increase the wiring complexity.

Let me know what you think, I am not wedded to the integrated build, especially if I have missed a vital point. If you know of a good suitable phase angle controller let me know.

DorsetScott, don’t be worried by the long narrative and pointing out of weaknesses. The idea is to thrash out the points now so you have a great system when you do the mod.
One thing I would suggest you buy if your house wiring does not include it already, is an RCD to plug the boiler in to. Water and electricity are a bad mix and and if you brew long enough you will mix them. Better to stay safe.

[Windoe]

Searching on AliExpress I found this which is even simpler to install
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/4000518990298.html

[DorsetScott]

Don't worry windoe, I'm more excited than anything. I know my knowledge limitations and reading this helps me expand that knowledge. Plus I've got you and mash collaborating on helping me mod a vessel. Its a good day

[Mash]

Windoe. I like your idea of integrating the controller. The IEC becoming live when fed from the original controller is a the reason for my isolator, which was switching between the two.

Let's go with your design it does have the potential to be easier to build, and is perhaps a tidier finish - mine was without doubt more agricultural.

[Windoe]

DorsetScott, I have looked around and think this will be the easiest to fit and simple to order.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10000W-AC-22 ... 0752.m1982
Unfortunately it comes from the Far East on a slow boat.
If you still have the bottom off your boiler have a think about where you will mount it and put the knob. If you can, plan on bolting the silver heatsink vertically adjacent to cooling vents if possible not too far (6”) from where the knob will be so the wires to it won’t need extending.

I will have a dig around for some heat resistant wire for you in the meantime.